Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 November 17

= November 17 =

question: John Murray 11 son of John Murray 1775 to 1825 ....did he publish "Letters from the Irish Highlands" letters from the blake family?
I read in a book "the land of Ireland" by brian de breffny,  published by Harry N. Abrams, Inc NY,  on page 187, that John Murray published in london  1825....."Letters from The Irish Highlands" consisting of letters... the life of the Blake family of Renvyle County of Galway about the area of Connacht Ireland. Not from Maria Edgeworth? So is that John Murrays or Maria Edgeworth who published that. I don't see it on John Murray's work? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.197.214.174 (talk) 00:11, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Letters from the Irish Highlands of Connemmara, by a Family Party was published in 1825 by John Murray, though there was also a second edition the same year published by Longman, Hurst, Rees, Orme, Brown, and Green, and there have been one or two reprints since. The publishing house of John Murray was owned in 1825 by John Murray II (1778–1843), son of John Murray I (1737–1793).  Maria Edgeworth wasn't a publisher, and I can find no particular connection between her and this book except that she seems to have been acquainted with the authors. --Antiquary (talk) 18:29, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

When did suicide become a sin?
A lot of Christians believe suicide is a sin. Where does this come from? In the early days, Christians had a disdain for valuing their own lives and sometimes went to great lengths to get themselves martyred or even died by their own hand. Jesus himself caused his mortal body to be killed, per dominant theology. So why is suicide a sin? Temerarius (talk) 04:52, 17 November 2018 (UTC)


 * You are asking two very different questions here. This question ("Where does this come from?") is not clear. Are you searching for a historical answer (what people believed in the past) or a theological answer (the biblical references that supporters and opponents would use)? Your next question (why is suicide a sin?) is very broad, and many people have different opinions on it. I am not going to give my opinion, because this is an issue that people have very strong feelings for and opinions about, and I don't want to upset anyone. You may find your answer on Yahoo Answers, though: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081212132445AASvnWx You may also ask this question on Quora. SSS (talk) 05:55, 17 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Nothing in the Bible expressly prohibits suicide. I suggest you read Christian views on suicide.--Shantavira|feed me 13:03, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Where you'll discover the commandment "thou shalt not kill." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:05, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Which, as many people (and in particular conservative ones) remind us, might maybe better be translated as "thou shalt not murder", and thus has all kinds of loopholes, from "just wars" to "self defence" and to stoning children who disagree with their elders. Adding suicide to that list should be easy. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:21, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * In a bit of possibly circular reasoning, the argument is made that it has to do with the unlawful taking of life. Thus, warfare, capital punishment, and abortion do not qualify as murder because they are legal - because humans have declared them so, via the legal system. Whether they are morally right is another question. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:07, 18 November 2018 (UTC)


 * And maybe even more to the point, read Sin. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:19, 17 November 2018 (UTC)


 * I'm sure there are as many opinions as there are websites, but this one makes the distinction that while suicide is a sin, it's not an unforgiveable sin. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:10, 18 November 2018 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry I wasn't clear, I was asking for a historical perspective rather than a theological one. Temerarius (talk) 15:57, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
 * "Sin" is a theological concept. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:51, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
 * It's a theological concept, but "when did this theological interpretation become common?" is a history question. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 22:08, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

US flag
The BBT is on in the background, and one of them has just said that the American flag can't touch the ground...is that true? —— SerialNumber  54129  09:42, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * From the United States Flag Code: "The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise." (link) - Lindert (talk) 09:54, 17 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Obviously it "can" touch the ground, but the flag code says you should avoid that. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:37, 17 November 2018 (UTC)


 * An obvious exception is when the flag is draped over a coffin, which is clearly beneath it. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:11, 17 November 2018 (UTC)


 * It may happen, but I don't think it's supposed to [//www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/7] [//www.vba.va.gov/pubs/forms/VBA-27-2008-ARE.pdf] [//www.homesteaderslife.com/blog/a-guide-to-american-flag-etiquette-and-traditions] . BTW regarding the original question according to some sources there's a myth that a flag needs to be destroyed once it's touched the ground. This isn't correct, provided it's fit for use, after cleaning if necessary, it can still be used [//www.legion.org/flag/flagmyths] . Nil Einne (talk) 21:41, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Jack's point was that the code apparently says the flag should never touch anything "beneath it", but the coffin is beneath it. If the wording is to be taken that literally, it seems that the flag should also not be folded up and stored, as it would then be touching something beneath it.  Does air count?  Maybe it has to hang vertically in a vacuum at all times.... --Trovatore (talk) 21:46, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Indeed. The boy wins an award.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:57, 17 November 2018 (UTC)


 * As noted on this part of the flag code, "(n) When the flag is used to cover a casket, it should be so placed that the union is at the head and over the left shoulder. The flag should not be lowered into the grave or allowed to touch the ground." I think the phraseology "beneath it" means relative to a flag in normal upright position. Obviously, the authors of the flag code have no problem with a flag draping a coffin. Also, the flag code is not legally binding, at least not to civilians. It's flag "etiquette". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:00, 18 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Note that most counties countries take a dim view of their flag being dropped on the ground, the exception being in the Commonwealth (and some other countries) when military colours are lowered to the ground in a Royal Salute, a practice which dates back to the 16th century. Flags on the ground says: "Americans are usually stunned or horrified when they see it for the first time because they have been conditioned by the idea that the American flag dips to no man". Alansplodge (talk) 20:46, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I assume your fourth word is also supposed to be "countries"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:06, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, thank you. A slip of the digit. Alansplodge (talk) 18:50, 19 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for your informative replies and discussion1 Apologies for not saying so at the time, I had totally forgotten I'd posted here—cheers! ——  SerialNumber  54129  17:49, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

What medal did the King give Private Harry Shell[e]y? What was Harold's surname? And who was General Holman?
Commons has a picture (at right) entitled "Pvt Harry Shelley receives British Distinguished Service Cross from King George V.jpg". The caption says "Pvt. Harry Shelley, Co A, US 132nd Infantry, 33rd Division receiving the Distinguished Service Cross from King George V".

The source says "Pvt. Harry Shelley, Co A, US 132nd Infantry, 33rd Division receiving British Distinguished Conduct Medal from King George V".

Another source says "Pvt. Harry Shelly being decorated by King George with the Medal of Honor for gallantry in the advance from Hamel on July 4th. He was the first man to be decorated that day. Gen. John J. Pershing and Gen Holman (British) in the background. 33rd Division. Molliens-au-Bois, France, Aug. 6th, 1918. [Handwritten note on back of photo: "Probably the Distinguished Service Cross not MoH."].

Now, the British DSC was for officers only, so we can rule that out, the DCM was for British and Commonwealth troops, but I wouldn't rule out some awards being made to Americans in the First World War in the interests of Allied comradeship, and our article on the battle says "Fourteen Americans were also decorated by the British, including four Distinguished Conduct Medals, four Military Crosses, and six Military Medals. Corporal Thomas A. Pope, who had rushed a German machine-gun during the German counter-attack on 5 July, was one of those who received the DCM, being awarded the medal personally by King George V on 12 August 1918".

So, was it an American DSC, a Medal of Honor, or a British DCM, or what? And, was the Private's surname Shelly or Shelley? And who was General Holman - I've found a General Holman in Russia in 1919, but he seems to have been in the Indian Army Intelligence Branch during the First World War. Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 14:52, 17 November 2018 (UTC)


 * "I've found a General Holman in Russia in 1919, but he seems to have been in the Indian Army Intelligence Branch during the First World War. "


 * Would that be "Lt.-Col. and Bt. Col. Herbert Campbell Holman" of the Indian Army? He is listed in the 1918 New Year Honours among the new Companions of the Order of the Bath. He was already a member of the Order of St Michael and St George and decorated with the Distinguished Service Order. We do not have an article about him. Dimadick (talk) 15:18, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, interesting character, but as I said, probably not the General Holman in the pic. (I have indented your reply for ease of reading). DuncanHill (talk) 15:23, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * The second source I linked above, says the General Holman in the picture is Herbert Campbell Holman, but I'm not convinced it's right. His dates were 1869-1949, see National Portrait Gallery photo and buried not far from me in Crowhurst. The Germans have an article on him d:wiki:Herbert_Holman. DuncanHill (talk) 15:32, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah! It could be him - the German article has him as QMG of the 4th Army, of which John Monash's Australian Corps was part, and Monash of course was in charge at Hamel. So, I think we've got the General, thanks. DuncanHill (talk) 15:37, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * And I found this forum thread which says he received the American DSC, and the British DCM, "for extraordinary heroism in action near Hamel, Belgium, July 4, 1918. With an Australian soldier, Private Shelly went out and silenced an enemy sniping post and brought back eight prisoners". He was from Chicago. There is some confusion about the date of the photo - I've seen both the 12th and the 8th given. DuncanHill (talk) 15:54, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

And the American Department of Defense list of DSC recipients lists him as Harry Shelly. DuncanHill (talk) 15:57, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * This, reprinted from the Chicago Tribune has the King giving Shelly the DCM. I haven't been able to find the actual citation for the DCM in the London Gazette though. DuncanHill (talk) 16:34, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Here's the citation for the American DSC, as you will see it is dated 1919, so the award in the picture must be of the award of the DCM. DuncanHill (talk) 16:39, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * And I've found which includes the picture and says it was the 12th, and the British DCM. I shall request the renaming of the page on Commons. DuncanHill (talk) 16:45, 17 November 2018 (UTC)