Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 November 2

= November 2 =

smoking in class
I started watching a video lecture by Harvard physicist Sidney Coleman from the external links in his biography. Someone asks a question, and while answering, Coleman lights a cigarette! This was in 1975 or 1976! Admittedly before my time, but not exactly ancient history. Was that kind of thing normal back then? I don't think I ever saw anyone smoke in class either in grade school/HS or in college. It just seemed incredibly weird in the video. I'm assuming it was a normal (i.e. not so well ventilated) college classroom. Thanks. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 15:03, 2 November 2018 (UTC)


 * I remember smoking in class during college, which would have been around the same time. We also served wine and cheese at the departmental seminar, which would be unheard of (or at least very unusual) nowadays. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:08, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * It's only the free wine that gets people to attend most faculty do's here :)   ——  SerialNumber  54129  15:15, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I was in High School from 1991-1994, and while there was no smoking in class, there were designated student smoking areas around the school which were only gotten rid of in the late 1980s; that is they weren't there when I was there, but there were students at the school who lamented their being shut down because it was only recently. Given that, I would NOT find it unusual for a college professor to smoke in class in the 1970s.  Smoking was MUCH more widespread in public or in mixed company prior to the late 1980s; you can see people on TV in the 1970s smoking on talk shows, game shows, etc.  -- Jayron 32 15:20, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I started university in 1983. The ban on smoking in class was only a couple of years old at that point, and a few professors still flaunted it openly. By the time I graduated four years later, it was strictly observed, though. I am not at all surprised a professor would be smoking in class in the mid 1970s. Smoking was really ubiquitous in those days.--Xuxl (talk) 16:34, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * When I was in grad school (way way back in the mid-2000s) smoking was not allowed in any buildings on campus, but there were a few professors who still smoked in their offices, just because they were ancient and what was anyone going to do about it? Adam Bishop (talk) 18:16, 2 November 2018 (UTC)


 * I was a University of Waterloo student in the mid-1970s and I remember the rule for classrooms changing in two stages: first that you could only smoke in the back rows (instead of anywhere in the room), then that you could not smoke there at all. There was a similar two-stage trajsition in movie theaters here about the same time (I remember joining in with a vigorous burst of applause from the audience when an on-screen notice announced "no smoking anywhere").  From memory, I think the first stage of change at the university was probably about 1973.  --76.69.46.228 (talk) 20:25, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Remember people smoking on planes? There used to be smoking and non-smoking sections, which accomplished very little, given that you're in a big metal tube where the air is all piped around.  I remember just resigning myself to a half-hour of suffering after every meal, which was when people would light up. --Trovatore (talk) 20:58, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually non-smoking sections (which also existed in trains, restaurants, etc.) were distinctly better than no segregation, in that at least you could avoid close exposure to the smokers. This was obvious every time you had to walk through a smoking section to get to the dining car, washroom, etc.  But today's all-non-smoking environment is a big improvement, of course.  Well, unless you smoke. --76.69.46.228 (talk) 04:26, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Does the US still have smoking sections in restaurants? It's been a few years since I was down there, but that was one of the oddities that stood out for me (well, that and signs regarding open carry rules on restaurant doors). Matt Deres (talk) 15:48, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 * That's up to each state, and possibly local laws in some states, but in my traveling experience the answer is no in most places I've been, except Nevada when I was there some years ago. Ah, here we are: see List of smoking bans in the United States. --76.69.46.228 (talk) 17:00, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks all. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 23:12, 2 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Actually it was even way more common and widely spread to smoke a pipe. In fact it was like a Dress code for intellectuals for a long time. Even Albert Einstein smoked his pipe literary everywhere. So after cigarettes became more common it was nothing extraordinary if teachers smoked "in class". --Kharon (talk) 23:54, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * The smell of cigarettes is far more revolting than that of pipes. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:03, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Back in the seventies I worked for a football pools promoter checking the coupons.  We worked until 10 pm - at 9:15 the floor supervisor would announce in a loud voice "Last cigarettes, please".   The thinking was, of course, that we couldn't have discarded cigarette ends amongst all that paper starting a fire after everyone had gone home.   I believe there was a waste bin check at the end of the day.   Later, smokers were confined to a tiny cubicle at the back of the canteen.   Pools companies were some of the biggest beneficiaries of the computer revolution - as someone put it "there used to be great barns full of people - now there's nobody there".   Although I wasn't there to see it, in 1974 the computer covered the whole of one floor of the building.   How times have changed.
 * I thought that the pools were a thing of the past - I don't know if they even still read out the football results on radio and television at 5:00 on a Saturday evening - but yesterday I found out I was wrong.  Nigerian pools - which always had the largest turnover after the British operations - still flourish. 2A00:23C1:CD83:1F01:5FF:ABBE:CD4D:76D (talk) 14:37, 3 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Talking of WPBs: When I was studying Russian at the University of Canberra (1980-82), our main lecturer occasionally smoked in class, although I have zero recollection of any student, or any other lecturer, ever doing so throughout my entire uni experience (1975-84). One night, he stubbed his cigarette out in a WPB and then continued on about verbs of motion or whatever.  He must have failed to extinguish his vile vector, as smoke soon started appearing from the WPB. We could all see it, but he had his back to it, and for a while he was oblivious to our gestures of concern, until someone was forced to interrupt him, for all our sakes. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:32, 3 November 2018 (UTC)


 * A high school in my corner of Melbourne, Australia may have been the last in the country to openly allow smoking. This would have been in the 1980s. The shock jocks and others condemned this of course, but a friend who taught there told me that it had its benefits. The only students who could "legally" smoke at school were those whose parents gave permission in writing. At that time, several were happy to do that. Smoking was restricted to breaks between classes, recess, lunch, etc., and to certain locations. It meant the school knew who the smokers were, and where they were. Anyone else caught smoking was in big trouble. These days a handful of kids still smoke at almost every school, but they have to hide, creating a rule breaking culture for smokers, and a confrontational relationship with the school. An improvement? HiLo48 (talk) 23:15, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 * In my high school days, students were not allowed to smoke anywhere on school grounds. The hypocrisy was in evidence, as teachers could smoke in the teachers' lounge. The kids who wanted to smoke would try to sneak a cigarette in the restroom. During the course of the day, the restroom smelled just like the teachers' lounge. In later years that evolved a bit, as the tobacco scent in the restroom was replaced by the smell of marijuana. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:47, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
 * No smoking has, I believe, recently been introduced in prisons and there were moves to ban it in mental hospitals.  See this response to one of Medeis' last posts:

- 92.19.174.150 10:56, 3 March 2018

People who hide to smoke may use the lavatories. The general section of our local hospital recently decided to dismantle the smoking shelter in the grounds. The mental health section has cameras (not immediately obvious) in the lavatories. This surely is (both literally and metaphorically) over the top. The male and female wards are separate, so hopefully the cameras are being monitored by individuals of the appropriate sex. 2.25.226.253 (talk) 19:14, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Smokers hiding in the lavatories is why modern airliners have smoke detectors in there, and why passengers are told about them. They were added following this airplane fire disaster, where one of the first thoughts was that the fire had been started by cigarettes, but it proved not to be true.  (This in turn reminds me of another transportation disaster where the fire probably was caused by a cigarette smoker.) --76.69.46.228 (talk) 19:33, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know that people are warned "don't smoke in the lavatories because you'll trigger the smoke detectors", and I think that the King's Cross fire was definitely caused by a discarded cigarette - the tragedy there was that when the fire was small an inspector went to the area below the escalator and although he passed the control for turning on the water fog (sprinkler system) he didn't realise what it was.  See also Bradford City stadium fire. 2.25.226.253 (talk) 19:43, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Native Americans questions - from Canada to South America.
I'm looking for some examples. Does anyone know of any examples where.

1. 2 Native American tribes didn't like each other, but when Europeans came, they were able to unite together against the Europeans? 2. 2 Native American tribes hated each other, and even when invaded by Europeans, they still weren't willing to unite. And cases were Europeans saw that they didn't like each other, and even gave both sides weapons just so they can further kill each other. 3. Cases where some tribes did human sacrificing - from other tribes rather than their own. Thanks. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 16:55, 2 November 2018 (UTC).
 * I can't think of any examples offhand, but in general, it usually went the other way; Native American nations tended to retain old alliances and enmity even with European settlers in the lands. Thus, in the Pequot War, the Pequots and Mohegans, which occupied the same geography and tended to be historic enemies, retained that rivalry where the Mohegans allied with the English against the Pequots.  So #2 seems very much more prevalent than #1.  -- Jayron 32 17:25, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Aztecs. Human sacrifice. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:31, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * 1. See Peach Tree War, Powhatan. 2. See Beaver Wars. 3. See Flower war. You may find further examples if you browse American Indian Wars, Mexican Indian Wars and Spanish colonization of the Americas (for 1 and 2) and Human_sacrifice for 3. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:32, 2 November 2018 (UTC)


 * See also Pawnee Scouts: "Because the Pawnee people were at times involved in territorial skirmishes with the Sioux and Cheyenne, some of them were amenable to serving with the army for pay". Alansplodge (talk) 18:22, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

"Native American tribes hated each other, and even when invaded by Europeans, they still weren't willing to unite."

In the Spanish conquest of the Aztec Empire, the Spanish had alliances with Tlaxcala, Cempoala, the Otomi, the San Andrés Mixquic, Iztapalapa, Xochimilco, and Texcoco. Most of them were traditional enemies of the Aztecs. Dimadick (talk) 19:38, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

It was usually more complicated than the OP suggests and the relationships were just as dynamic and evolving as those between European powers. It was often the case that a band or tribe would align with a European power, use that trade association to expand their territory against their rivals, then get pushed by some other band's expansion, fight with peoples they'd never met before who had also been pushed off their homelands, then repeat again and again. The 17th and 18th centuries contained huge upheavals of many native groups to the point where it's tough to say what exactly went on. For just a taste, see Iroquois Wars. Records are often spotty in comparison to purely European conflicts at the time, but it lasted longer than the Hundred Years' War and featured similar temporary alliances and infighting. Matt Deres (talk) 16:01, 3 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Yea seems to me there is another category of "Europeans helping 1 tribe fight their enemies." Yikes. That's likely the most prominent? 67.175.224.138 (talk) 19:58, 4 November 2018 (UTC).