Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 September 19

= September 19 =

Does Katharine Gorka still work for the US Department of Homeland Security?
Does Katharine Gorka still work for the US Department of Homeland Security? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.81.143.144 (talk) 15:42, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Her LinkedIn profile indicates she does. -- Jayron 32 16:24, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * She made an important speech in Washington in June . 86.133.58.126 (talk) 10:33, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

What was the tallest structure before Egyptian pyramids?
Pyramid of Djoser says it's immediate predecessor was a 28 foot Jericho tower built in 8000 BC but surely some of those things at the center of Mesopotamian city-states were taller? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:19, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Assuming it actually existed, the Tower of Babel may have been taller. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:03, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * The Book of Genesis doesn't give a height, so this is highly speculative. Are you basing this on extra-canonical scriptures? As the article discusses in detail, if the Tower was a real structure it was most likely the ziggurat Etemenanki. Alternately, it's quite likely, as with many myths, that it's a fictional structure inspired by the actual ziggurats and/or other large structures of antiquity. The point of most myths is to convey a moral or lesson, not to relate literal history. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 06:54, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Mental Floss includes Göbekli Tepe on the speculative list of contenders:. 107.15.157.44 (talk) 21:07, 19 September 2018 (UTC)


 * The OP refers to "those things at the center of Mesopotamian city-states". I'm speculating he's referring to a Ziggurat, though I cannot be sure.  Presuming he is, the oldest extant ziggurat is probably at Chogha Zanbil, which dates to C 1250 BCE, or like 1500 years newer than the Djoser pyramid.  The oldest true ziggurats that we know (now destroyed) would have dated to around the time of the Ziggurat of Ur, which was built between 2100-2000 BCE, or 600-700 years after the Djoser pyramid.  There's possibly an older ziggurat-like structure in Konar Sandal, eastern Iran, which also dates to "late third millennium BCE", which is younger than Djoser.  The precursors to ziggurats date to around 4000 BCE, but these were basically piles of dirt with a flattened top.  For example, there is Tepe Sialk, which predate the Djoser pyramid (the ziggurat-like structure at Tepe Sialk dates from around 3000 BCE, or 300 or so years older than the Djoser pyramid), though with some of these structures the line between a pile of dirt and a building gets a bit fuzzy, there are many sources that indicate that calling the thing at Tepe Sialk a "ziggurat" or even a "structure" is controversial (see  for example), and the dating of said structure to as early as 3000 BCE is also not widely accepted.  I can't find any evidence of any agreed-upon ziggurat or similar structure which is probably older than Djoser.  So no.  They are probably not older.  -- Jayron 32 01:17, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Is it very murky before the mid-27th century BCE then? Maybe it's even unclear which continent the Step Pyramid took the record from? Everyone seems to agree after that, perhaps because Egyptian pyramids survived (mostly), held the record long (2650 to 1220) and pharaoh lists would show if any are undiscovered. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:32, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Everything from 5000 years ago is pretty damned murky, I can only say that, of structures we know about, there aren't any definitively older than Djoser that were taller than it. There's a lot of maybes, but anything we know that was taller is definitely not older, and anything that we know is older is definitely not taller.  -- Jayron 32 15:09, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Since you asked for "structure" and "tallest" instead of "building" and "highest", i assume Petroglyphes count too. Some are so old that the pyramids seem modern in comparison (up to 200 000 years old) and some are so "tall" (27 Km²) that they clearly where the "tallest" structures till the chinese started building their Great wall which wont be topped for a while. --Kharon (talk) 05:38, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
 * In English we would usually say longest or widest if we were thinking of petroglyphs. And highest can mean the ranking where every house in Tibet and West Kansas beats Burj Khalifa. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:32, 20 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Petroglyphes are the carvings on the surface of rocks. Your "200 000 years old petroglyphes" are not really datable, few metres tall, carvings on a 200 000 years old and 27 km long (not tall), basaltic rock formation. And tallness can't be mesured in square kilometres (=km², lower case) anyway 194.174.73.80 (talk) 14:13, 20 September 2018 (UTC) Marco Pagliero Berlin
 * Petroglyphs can be dated, but you're right that none are 200,000 years old - our article states the oldest claimed petroglyph is dated to ~40,000 years ago. Anyway, there are several methods available for estimating how long ago a rock surface was freshly exposed by a carving, based on weathering and varnish. See for instance. Someguy1221 (talk) 21:23, 20 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Petroglyphs would not really be expected to exist before the rise of behavioral modernity, which includes fully symbolic human behavior (though of course there is some controversy about the exact dating and degree of abruptness of the beginning of behavioral modernity). AnonMoos (talk) 01:06, 23 September 2018 (UTC)


 * What I said: estimating how long ago = not really datable 194.174.73.80 (talk) 10:09, 24 September 2018 (UTC) Marco Pagliero