Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2019 April 4

= April 4 =

Trump's tax returns
What are the people who are asking to see Trump's tax returns actually hoping to find? By its very nature, a tax return only shows the IRS what the person filing it wants them to see, or at least doesn't mind them seeing. The really interesting stuff would be what is not in the tax return. As Donald Trump 2016 presidential campaign says, Mitt Romney speculated that "There is only one logical explanation for Mr. Trump's refusal to release his returns: there is a bombshell in them." But I'm having a hard time understanding what that bombshell could possibly be. A tax return could never, for example, prove that there was collusion with the Russians. It might show that Trump avoided tax, sure. But that's hardly news, and in fact Trump seems to make a virtue of it. --Viennese Waltz 04:20, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I recall someone speculating that the real reason Trump doesn't want to release the returns is that he is not actually doing as well financially as he wants people to think. But I'm not sure where to find you a link.  --Trovatore (talk) 05:06, 4 April 2019 (UTC)


 * 1) That Trump actually isn't a billionaire. In 2004, Deutsche Bank notably estimated that Trump's net worth was less than $1 billion. It's known that Trump inflates his assets to the public (including literally lying about the height of Trump tower) while diminishing them to the government. Trump essentially inherited over $400 million (inflation adjusted) from his dad, so, if his net worth is about the same, this would undercut his claims of being a genius businessman and investor.


 * 2) That Trump owns property in Russia or other countries with governments not-so-friendly to the United States, or has otherwise done undisclosed business with Russian nationals. Illegal or not, collusion or not, it would undercut his claims of having no connections with Russia, no business with Russia, and no hypothetical ulterior motives for being friendly with Russia's government. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:14, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Tax returns, of course, don't show your net worth, though they would give valuable information to someone trying to estimate it (e.g. value of properties on which depreciation is being claimed). --Trovatore (talk) 05:23, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd also add that the tax return does not show the IRS only what the person doesn't mind them seeing. You don't hide what you want hidden - you hide what you want hidden and think you can get away with hiding. Also, "hidden" here means "hidden from the IRS", as these records normally don't get seen by the public. There could be things you are happy to tell the IRS but would hate to be public knowledge. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:19, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Even if Trump avoided tax legally, having the actual returns to demonstrate this and give details may be of political worth to his opponents. Many people in the U.S. have little or no understanding of various provisions in tax laws that may substantially reduce tax burdens of mostly wealthy individuals and businesses. For example, many corporations have, at least for some years, paid little or no U.S. income tax despite large profits. Some have also suggested Trump's tax returns may include deceptive figures. Michael Cohen has suggested Trump and/or companies under his control may have claimed different property valuations on tax returns than on loan applications, insurance policies, etc. If done knowingly and with the intent to mislead, that may constitute fraud. In this case, value may come not simply from having the tax returns, but from comparing them with data from other sources. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 05:47, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * As others have said, there are lots of things that the tax returns could should which may be of interest to opponents/politically useful, regardless of whether it shows any evidence of potentially illegal acts. One thing not mentioned yet is it will also provide some more info on his charitable work [//www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/4/13147962/donald-trump-tax-returns-explained] [//www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/does-donald-trump-pay-any-income-taxes-at-all]. Although a fair amount of info is already coming from other sources including his foundation, still the more info available the better from the POV of opponents. (To be clear, the tax returns will only provide clues in terms of any deductions claimed. Trump can donate money either without claiming deductions, or where he can't claim deductions.) Nil Einne (talk) 09:47, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Aside &mdash; the last item you mention is a bit of a sore point with me. I don't like it that people want to see other people's returns to see how much they donate to charity.  That sets up an expectation to donate to be seen donating, which is not supposed to be the point.
 * On that note, it may be worth pointing out that some Christians consider themselves barred from claiming their charitable deductions for tax purposes by Matthew 6:4. It's not a common position, and I'd be pretty surprised if Trump had any such scruple, but I'm talking about the general phenomenon. --Trovatore (talk) 19:03, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * It's my understanding that a big reason why this is a deal for Trump is because he continually makes a big deal over his charitable donations but when people actually looked into the available evidence, it didn't really seem to support his claims [//www.npr.org/2017/10/18/558352411/a-trump-golf-course-said-it-gave-millions-to-charity-heres-what-the-numbers-say] [//www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-boasts-of-his-philanthropy-but-his-giving-falls-short-of-his-words/2016/10/29/b3c03106-9ac7-11e6-a0ed-ab0774c1eaa5_story.html]  [//www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/12/donald-trumps-mendacious-bragging-about-his-charitable-giving/511703/] [//www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/what-the-collapse-of-the-trump-foundation-tells-us-about-donald-trump], as with a lot of things he has claimed. Probably if he had subscribed to Matthew 6:4 and had made this clear for a long time, although some would still care, for others it would matter far less than it did now. Nil Einne (talk) 04:26, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Of course it's not just how much but who was donated to. For example any politician donating to VDARE, New Century Foundation, Charles Martel Society, [//www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/05/10/why-the-irs-puts-white-nationalist-groups-in-the-same-category-as-orchestras-planetariums-and-zoos/], [//nypost.com/2016/12/22/white-nationalist-groups-register-as-charities-and-raise-millions/] is likely to find they are subject to significant concern. For many politicians donating to Islamic Relief or American Muslims for Palestine will be almost as bad. For that matter, any donors to Planned Parenthood or Focus on the Family if it goes against their publicly stated views. Whether people are entitled to that info or feel that way is perhaps not something suitable for the RD. Nil Einne (talk) 08:19, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Viennese Waltz -- One basic fact is that Trump's returns (with all supporting documents and schedules) are likely to be many hundreds of pages long, and so would likely shed some light on a number of the persisting Trump mysteries, such as emoluments, cash flow from Russia, etc. etc. AnonMoos (talk) 02:33, 10 April 2019 (UTC)