Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2019 August 20

= August 20 =

Treaty of Potsdam
Can anyone find the full text of the treaty, signed in 1805? See User:Dumelow/Treaty of Potsdam (1805). this source says "We here omit the well known Treaty of Alliance which has many times been published", yet I cannot seem to find it. Eddie891 Talk Work 00:01, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I can't find it online, but several searches suggest the Consolidated Treaty Series may be a worthwhile reference to check into. It appears those with OED subscriptions may have access to it here.  If you can't find anyone to look into it for you, perhaps WP:REX may have some leads.-- Jayron 32 01:17, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Nah, that's an encyclopedia with an entry for the treaty series. They do sell it though... for $14,000 . I also figured out it's in volume 58 of the series, which I see Mendaliv added while I was checking. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:17, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I believe the full/formal name (at least in English) is "Treaty of Friendship between Russia and Prussia concluded on 3 November 1805 by Tsar Alexander I and King Friedrich Wilhelm III, in the presence of Queen Luisa, by the tomb of Friedrich II in Garnisonkirche in Potsdam". It may be reprinted in G.F. de Martens, Recueil des traités et conventions conclus par la Russie. I think it might be available in French and Russian here: Pages 476 to 491. The small text from 476 to 480 may be editor's notes or a preamble or something, I can't exactly tell without translating it more deeply. It says "22 octobre (3 novembre). Acte d'accession de l'Autriche au traité, conclu le même jour à Potsdam entre la Prusse et la Russie". If it's not that specific treaty it may be in the same book. —/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 01:59, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Another source refers to the Nov. 3, 1805 treaty as "Secret treaty of military concert against France, with related documents" (and in French, "Traité secret de concert militaire contre la France, avec documents connexes"), concluded between Prussia and Russia with the accession of Austria. This source says the printed text can be found in volume 58 of Clive Parry, Consolidated Treaty Series, 1648–1919, page 267 (I believe with French text beginning page 269). See  to find this series at a library near you. Based on what I'm seeing, it's held by many academic law libraries. If you can't get it easily and are hoping for some quick scans, I'd suggest asking the UC Davis law-lib listserv. They're pretty nice on there. —/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 07:06, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Oh, yes, Oxford has it:, just not the precise site Jayron suggested. Apparently my library has some sort of peasant's subscription, so I can't actually see it. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:23, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Pages 476 - 480 are "the act of accession of Austria to the treaty concluded the same day [le même jour, see note below] at Potsdam between Prussia and Russia."  The text of the treaty begins with the Déclaration (preamble, pp 480 - 482).   The text of the Articles is on pp 482 - 489.   The subscriptions are on pp 489 - 491.   The Russian ruler signs on 22 October 1805, the Prussian ruler on 3 November.   As mentioned, although the dates are different the day (Sunday in this case) is the same (Russia held on to the old calendar until after the 1917 revolution).
 * There follows (p 491) a "Convention between His Majesty the Emperor of all the Russias and His Majesty the King of Prussia on the march to follow a common accord in their actual relation with France."  An "additional declaration" follows on pp 493 - 4.   This is followed (pp 494 - 496) by "separate and secret articles".   The subscriptions (pp 496 - 498) are dated as before. 2A00:23C5:3186:E600:3D9B:C5C7:2662:1431 (talk) 14:05, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks all! I have requested the link provided at WP:REX, and will request a scan through UC Davis as  suggested if that fails. Eddie891 Talk Work 15:49, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

City rivalry in other European countries
It's fairly well known here in Finland that there is a friendly, jocular rivalry between three of the biggest cities: Helsinki, Tampere and Turku, and to a lesser extent within the capital area between Helsinki, Espoo and Vantaa.

How is it in other European countries? What is the relationship, for example, in Germany between Berlin and Munich, or in France between Paris and Marseille, or in the UK between London and Birmingham? Unlike Finland, in those countries the corresponding cities are quite far apart, which should account for more of a cultural difference. How do people in these cities view those in the other cities? J I P &#124; Talk 21:54, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, there are rivalries between cities in the other European nations. And in the Americas. Dividing the world into “Us vs Them” is human nature. Blueboar (talk) 22:10, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I would want to know more specifically what these rivalries are like, how do people in the corresponding cities view those in the other cities. J I P  &#124; Talk 22:17, 20 August 2019 (UTC)


 * JIP -- I think that London and Paris are fairly unchallengeable within their own countries as far as any direct city-to-city rivalry goes. In England, there's more likely to be a Birmingham vs. Manchester rivalry (see:, ).  I know that in Scotland there's Glasgow vs. Edinburgh rivalry, with those in Edinburgh seeing those in Glasgow as surly working-class louts, and those in Glasgow seeing those in Edinburgh as affected pretentious types.  In Japan, there's a kind of rivalry between Kyoto (the traditional imperial capital), grouped together with nearby Osaka, against Tokyo (the Tokugawa shogunate and modern capital) -- referred to as Kansai vs. kanto). AnonMoos (talk) 23:40, 20 August 2019 (UTC)


 * The geography of Canada encourages this trope. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:28, 21 August 2019 (UTC)


 * See also List of sports rivalries which spills over into this (but isn't that the point of team sport?)--Shantavira|feed me 06:51, 21 August 2019 (UTC)


 * For France, a quick search of the keywords unearthed articles about rivalries between Marseille and Paris, Strasbourg and Metz (in football) and Besançon and Dijon. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 18:17, 21 August 2019 (UTC)


 * https://www.itstuscany.com/en/the-rivalry-between-pisa-and-livorno/ --87.18.64.165 (talk) 00:40, 22 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Germany has a lot of local rivalries. Berlin and Munich have a bit of a rivalry that goes back to the conflict between the king of Bavaria and the king (and later emperor) in Berlin, see for example Austrian-Prussian war. Also Nuremberg and Munich have some rivalry, since the Franconians try to distinguish themselves from Bavarians. But the most famous city-rivalry here is certainly between Cologne and Düsseldorf (in German). Two neighboring cities on the Rhine with distinct differences in local tradition, different local beers and different carnival festivities. And a long history of trying to surpass one another in the "importance" for the region. --2A02:8109:93C0:6B:9BA:A00C:FD9:3967 (talk) 06:45, 22 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Moscow and St Petersburg, , and of course Oxford and Cambridge (nobody writes "Cambridge and Oxford" even though Cambridge is earlier in the alphabet). 2A00:23C1:E101:4900:F9D6:E449:7B77:7388 (talk) 11:16, 22 August 2019 (UTC)


 * If I may comment extra-Europistically: Australia has its never-ending rivalry between Sydney and Melbourne. The framers of the Constitution of Australia acknowledged this by specifying that the new national capital (Canberra) would be located within an area of New South Wales at least 100 miles distant from Sydney, but until such time as it was built the Parliament would meet in Melbourne. Hence, Melbourne was effectively our national capital from 1901 to 1927, and Sydney never has been. Nya nya. :) --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:56, 22 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Historically, there was rivalry within London in the 18th century between the City of London and the City of Westminster, leading to a bout of competitive bridge building. See City Rivalries and the making of modern London, 1720-1770. Alansplodge (talk) 12:21, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

In Poland the best known city rivalry is between Warsaw, the capital and largest city, and Kraków, a former capital and second-largest city. The song "Nie przenoście nam stolicy do Krakowa" (Don't move the capital back to Kraków) can be described as a sort of Kraków's unofficial anthem. — Kpalion(talk) 09:53, 26 August 2019 (UTC)


 * In Switzerland, the most obvious city rivalry is between Basel and Zurich. Part of it is football, of course, and here Basel can be definitely seen as the winner. But Basel (like most of Switzerland) dislikes Zurich for its arrogance, its nationally dominating media, its particular manifestation of right-wing politicians in the Swiss People's Party who also seem to dominate nationally, the fact that Zurich's metropolitan area keeps growing (while Basel is more confined in that respect, lying on the border of two neighbouring countries). People in Zurich are aware of these misgivings and the rivalry, but don't pay as much attention to it, which makes them seem even more arrogant ... One can hardly imagine a Carnival of Basel where Zürcher don't get laughed at in Schnitzelbank songs.  Anyway, nothing serious, but there is definitely a rivalry. ---Sluzzelin  talk  20:14, 26 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Liverpool–Manchester rivalry, on which we have an article. This is usually dated to the building of the Manchester Ship Canal in 1894, which opened up Manchester to shipping at the expense of Liverpool, and has continued with rivalry as to pre-eminence in North West England, and rivalry between football teams, specifically Liverpool and Manchester United.    Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:28, 26 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I did mention Birmingham-Manchester rivalry. The only specific city rivalry articles in Category:Regional rivalries are Liverpool-Manchester and Seattle–Portland rivalry... AnonMoos (talk) 21:02, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Birmingham and Liverpool are not the same city. Manchester will pick a fight with anyone.   Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:10, 26 August 2019 (UTC)