Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2019 December 7

= December 7 =

Saloons in the 1930s
When Franklin Roosevelt announced that Prohibition had been repealed, he issued a proclamation asking the American people, among other things, to comply with the laws regulating alcohol. Also in this proclamation, he said, "I ask especially that no State shall by law or otherwise authorize the return of the saloon in its old form or in some modern guise." What did the term "saloon" signify at this time? If I were reading this literally, it would sound like FDR wanted all bars to be banned, i.e. establishments that serve liquor by the drink for on-premises consumption, but I doubt that was what he meant. Or maybe I'm wrong. What did he mean by saying that he didn't want any state to allow "saloons"? --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:37, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * This following article should provide some background: . Perhaps most relevant: ...increasing accusations of saloon involvement in crime.  And, after prohibition: ...the word “saloon” virtually disappeared from the public vocabulary. Owners instead chose the name “cocktail lounge” or “tavern.” — 2606:A000:1126:28D:E579:84AC:9408:ADE (talk) 05:06, 7 December 2019 (UTC)


 * (ec):The world saloon clearly had demonic powers, and in many states Alcoholic Beverage Control Boards refused to license any premises so called. But it was quickly discovered that bars, taverns, cafés, night clubs, and cocktail lounges served much the same purpose The saloons most despised by prohibitionists and having the worst reputations were, i believe, the working man's (particularly Irish the Immigrant's) place to gather at the end of the day.&mdash;eric 05:14, 7 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Around the end of the 19th century, there was a common perception that after they had received their paychecks, workmen would go straight from the factory gate to the saloon and drink away much of the money that should have gone to support their wives and children, leaving them living in very poor conditions. AnonMoos (talk) 17:27, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * ...and then go home and beat up their wives. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:15, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

German to English Translation
Hi Folks, Can somebody please provide a simple translation of Verständlicherweise befanden sich unter diesen Personen auch viele Ehemalige aus dem Gegner-Kontaktumfeld. Thanks.  scope_creep Talk  14:51, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * It's for the Harro Shulze-Boysen article. I think I know what it meant but I want a good translation. Thanks.  scope_creep Talk  15:02, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * That's Harro Schulze-Boysen. You'll probably get an answer immediately if you ask at the German-language Wikipedia reference desk, Auskunft. You can ask in English--I post there in English, and it's never a problem. Temerarius (talk) 19:50, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Translation: "Of course, among these persons there were also many acquaintances from the former environment of Der Gegner". The words "Gegner-Kontaktumfeld" in the original sentence are quite opaque when seen out of context, but from the German article it becomes evident that "Der Gegner" ('The Opponent') was the title of a magazine the person in question had been connected with. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:11, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I will give it a try. I never thought about it. Thanks. I plan to write an article on The opponent and its later incarnation opponent magazine at some point. Excellent work. Thanks folks.;8)  scope_creep Talk  14:55, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Wife/mother of Muslim rulers
Has there been any cases of the wives or mothers of Muslim rulers secretly adhering to Christianity or Judaism after there entrance into a harem? For example many wives of Ottoman sultans and Valide sultans were born into Christian faiths before being enslaved. Did any of these women either in the Ottoman Empire or in other Muslim states ever show any signs of secret adherence or sympathy for non-Muslims? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.209.14.47 (talk) 15:45, 7 December 2019 (UTC)


 * There's no formal requirement in Islamic law that a woman convert to Islam before becoming the wife/concubine of a Muslim man. Muslim men are allowed to have Christian or Jewish wives... AnonMoos (talk) 17:21, 7 December 2019 (UTC)


 * I have only a casual familiarity with Islam, but this goes against what I've heard. Do you have a reference for this? Temerarius (talk) 20:15, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * The crucial aspect is, "People of the book". So a Jewish or Christian wife would be acceptable without conversion, but not a Hindu. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:36, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm not convinced. When I've heard Muslims discuss the matter, they disagree. We would have to refer to an authority figure. Temerarius (talk) 21:13, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Imagine if the question was being asked about Christianity. Who would you go to as an authority figure? I don't think there is any single such person in either case. HiLo48 (talk) 00:07, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Qur'an 5:5 Surah Al-Ma'idah for those they can, or Qur'an 2:221 Surah Al-Baqarah for those they can't (polytheism, vs. a truly revealed faith, even if predating that of The Prophet). That's all that's needed. Or you can ask a mufti from a tradition within your locally trusted scope. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:23, 7 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Temerarius -- see Islamic marital jurisprudence, Interfaith marriage in Islam etc... AnonMoos (talk) 03:10, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Also you could read this entry: Interfaith marriage in Islam. Omidinist (talk) 04:29, 8 December 2019 (UTC)


 * A quick Google brings up Royal French Women in the Ottoman Sultans' Harem: The Political Uses of Fabricated Accounts from the Sixteenth to the Twenty-First Century - only the first page is viewable but it says that these accounts have all been fabricated in the west. Alansplodge (talk) 08:58, 8 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Bingo! Theodora Kantakouzene (wife of Orhan): "Theodora was one of the three daughters of Emperor John VI Kantakouzenos... In January 1346, to cement her father's alliance with the rising Ottoman emirate... she was betrothed to the Ottoman ruler, Orhan Gazi…. Theodora remained a Christian after her marriage, and was active in supporting the Christians living under Ottoman rule. Later, Halil married Irene, a daughter of John V Palaiologos and Theodora's sister, Helena Kantakouzene. Alansplodge (talk) 08:58, 8 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The Imperial Harem: Women and Sovereignty in the Ottoman Empire by Leslie P. Peirce (p. 32) says that Maria, the Serbian wife of Bayezid I (Ottoman Sultan from 1389 to 1402) is "the only foreign wife, Muslim or Christian, who appears in the Ottoman histories" but goes on to say that the only objective of those histories was only the glorification of the dynasty, not historical accuracy. Our article shows Maria to be the daughter of Louis Fadrique and Helena Asanina Kantakouzene. Alansplodge (talk) 11:51, 8 December 2019 (UTC)


 * However, the situation seems to have been rather different for concubines who had the status of slaves. Encyclopedia of Women and Islamic Cultures: Family, Law and Politics (p. 350) says: "By the fifteenth century, the practice of capturing non-Muslim slave women to serve as concubines – and not wives – to the sultan and become mothers of the princes became established, based on the logic that a converted slave woman would not introduce fanatoical or heretical religious ideas into the inner sanctum of the palace". Alansplodge (talk) 19:52, 8 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Yes, I didn't want to be the first one to bring it up, but there is a wife/concubine/slave distinction that is pertinent here. In terms of history, that is: I'm sure slavery and concubinage are no longer practiced in the modern Muslim world any more in the Western. Temerarius (talk) 20:52, 8 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Slavery was only banned in Saudi Arabia in 1962, and the theoretical ban in Mauritania is extremely shaky in practice... AnonMoos (talk) 23:34, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

French and Indian War: France and their European/Native-American allies
During the French and Indian War, why did some Europeans and Native-Americans fought for France aganist Britain? 86.128.175.103 (talk) 20:54, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * It had to do with the fur trade, for one thing. Read the article you linked, and see if it becomes clearer. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:14, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Just a wild guess, but maybe some of the Eurpeans fought for France because they were French? Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:40, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
 * See also New France, Louisiana (New France) and Franco-Indian alliance. Alansplodge (talk) 18:49, 8 December 2019 (UTC)


 * One important factor was that in the mid-18th century the French in North America were expanding their trade routes more than their settled agricultural area, while the British Atlantic colonies (as opposed to the Hudson Bay Company) were much more actively expanding their settled agricultural areas, and were about to extend their settlements across the Appalachian mountains (see Proclamation Line of 1763)... AnonMoos (talk) 23:41, 8 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Everyone knew back then that Albion was perfidious. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:43, 9 December 2019 (UTC)