Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2019 January 22

= January 22 =

Early 18th Century Transylvanian currency
What was the currency in use in Transylvania in the early 18th century? It does not seem to be the Austro-Hungarian Gulden, as that currency seems to have been in use starting in 1754, so rather it must be a predecessor, which the article does not tell us. Radioactive Pixie Dust (talk) 01:53, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Prior to 1867, Transylvania was attached to the Kingdom of Hungary (1526–1867), which at that time was a separate realm of the Habsburg Empire from Austria; it would have been an independent kingdom in personal union with other Austrian Habsburg lands. It looks like the currency was the forint at the time.  It should be noted that much of Europe for much of history used a gold coin known variously as the Guilder (meaning "gold") or Florin (meaning "of Florence").  Gold coins minted in Florence were technically "florins" and those minted in German speaking lands were technically "guilders", but AFAIK, they were similar size and material, and as such, the coins were basically interchangeable, and the names become confused during the time period.  As a result, most countries used either one or the other or both, and simply used a name in the local language that corresponded to either "guilder" or "florin"; thus in Hungary they called the coins "forint", while in Austria they were called "gulden".  I'm fairly certain that whatever exact gold coin the Kingdom of Hungary minted at the time would have been called the "forint", as that name has been used throughout history for Hungarian coinage.  Not a guarantee, but absent any other evidence, that's probably what it was called.  -- Jayron 32 15:24, 22 January 2019 (UTC)


 * There's a bit more info at History of coins in Romania - but looks like that article needs the forint added to it! 70.67.193.176 (talk) 15:26, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Not really, In the early 18th century, Transylvania wasn't part of the country of Romania.  It was part of Hungary; it only became part of Romania after 1918.  See Union of Transylvania with Romania.  Romanian currency wouldn't be introduced to Transylvania until 200 years after the OP was interested in. -- Jayron 32 16:15, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Ah, thank you. I was confused by the Transylvania article which locates Transylvania in central (modern) Romania, but never assume! Lesson learned. Do you think the History of coins in Romania article needs some clarification? It seems to lump modern and old territories under the name Romania but tht might not be right. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 22:49, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, European borders changed alot before the middle 20th century; many places that were long parts of one country are today parts of others. Borderlands like Transylvania are particularly convoluted with their historical ownership; AFAIK, there have been Romanian speakers in Transylvania for much longer than it has been part of Romania (Romance-language speakers would have been there since Roman Dacia), but Romania itself, like MANY places, took a long time to be formed as a cohesive nation-state, where all Romanian-speaking-and-culture people are united into a single country; and arguably it was only so between the world wars, before Moldova was split off.  That's how history works.  You'd be surprised how few of places we think of today as unified nation-states have existed as such for longer back than about 1945, and definitely not before the middle 19th century.  -- Jayron 32 12:12, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
 * By the way, no one has mentioned that for most of the 17th century, Transylvania was under the Ottomans. It came under Austria as a result of the long fighting after the failed 1683 Ottoman attack on Vienna (see Great Turkish War), and this was not formally ratified until the 1699 Treaty of Karlowitz... AnonMoos (talk) 17:05, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * One minor quibble; Transylvania was never formally an Austrian territory. It was ruled by the Habsburgs, but attached to the Kingdom of Hungary as the Principality of Transylvania (1711–1867), considered part of the Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen.  -- Jayron 32 17:45, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * If there was circulating Ottoman currency still in the 18th century (it may have taken some time for it to leave circulation), there are several Ottoman coins that would have been used in the 17th century; Ottoman coinage changed alot over the time period in question, the Qirsh/Kuruş had been the standard (our articles imply they are different coins, but that's plainly wrong. Those are the same word transliterated in different spellings, the articles should probably be merged) introduced at around the time that Transylvania was being fought over.  The prior currency was the Akçe, which would have been used in Transylvania prior to the territory being captured by the Habsburgs.  -- Jayron 32 17:38, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * According to coinarchives.com, the Transylvanian gold coin in the 17th and 18th centuries was the Ducat, while there is a silver one from 1724 called a "Silver Gulden / ½ Tallér", which seems to be the same as Thaler. Alansplodge (talk) 17:34, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

windows
I was watching the news (at 11:24) and noticed that there are a row of six "windows" at the bottom of the order fence/wall. What are they called? What purpose do they serve?

Because of their clean construction I presume they are not illegal cut into the fence but designed and built from the beginning that way. Mũeller (talk) 05:06, 22 January 2019 (UTC)


 * It's probably to let floodwaters and debris out. Шурбур (talk) 07:31, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Western Hagakure
Most honored Ladies and Gentlemen

I have recently read the marvelous book "Hagakure" by Yamamoto Tsunetomo. I did so because I wanted to know more about the Samurai (am half Japanese). A friend mentioned that he had heard of Western books from the Medieval period which were very similar to the Hagakure. He however could not remember any titles. I would therefore like asking you know the Western equivalent of "Hagakure".

Thank you most kindly for your answers--2A02:1205:505D:1BB0:3D38:C991:DCA8:CD46 (talk) 10:31, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I added a couple of internal links to the OP's question. --Xuxl (talk) 13:48, 22 January 2019 (UTC)


 * All I know of Hagakure is what our article says, but perhaps Geoffroi de Charny's Book of Chivalry is somewhat analogous. There are a number of medieval and Renaissance treatises dealing with the training and ethics of knights. Deor (talk) 16:16, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The Talbot Shrewsbury Book includes three instructional texts for young knights amongst various histories and romances. Alansplodge (talk) 12:15, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Dionysius II of Syracuse
Good Day

I am looking for the historical sources of the life of Dionysius II of Syracuse. The article unfortunetly does not list them.

Thank you--2A02:1205:505D:1BB0:3D38:C991:DCA8:CD46 (talk) 10:32, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * In the article Dionysius II of Syracuse, there are several sources of information listed in the "Notes" and "References" sections. If you check those sources out, it may lead you to yet more sources.  -- Jayron 32 15:12, 22 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Hello. Jayron’s advice will help you find scholarly sources, but I was wondering if by historical, do you mean the original ancient source? That is Plutarch’s Lives, which contain a biography of Dionysius’s uncle Dion of Syracuse, which mentions Dionysius. You can read it in translation at Wikisource. It’s not currently linked from the Dionysius page; I’ll see if I can fix that later. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 22:51, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Fet-Mats (Swedish Mummy)
Dear All

I am looking for more informations about the Swedish mummy Fet-Mats. The article doesn`t have much information on it, especially not the autopsy files which wouldf interest me the most.

Thank you--2A02:1205:505D:1BB0:3D38:C991:DCA8:CD46 (talk) 10:37, 22 January 2019 (UTC)


 * ( Added wikilinks to the OP's post to aid answerers.70.67.193.176 (talk) 15:30, 22 January 2019 (UTC) )

Specific Holy Bible Version
Hello

I am looking for a specific version of the Holy Bible, which is often featured in American movies. It is a black flexible leather-bound Bible with only the title "Holy Bible" written in silver letters on the cover. I am curious if this is a real version and where it could be bought.

Thank you for your answers

With kind regards--2A02:1205:505D:1BB0:3D38:C991:DCA8:CD46 (talk) 10:49, 22 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Any idea which "American movies"? That's quite a large category! One clear example would help, I think. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:06, 22 January 2019 (UTC)


 * A Google image search for '"Holy Bible" written in silver letters on the cover' shows that there are numerous Bible editions which meet this description. It may also have been a movie prop from a commercial props house; a search for "Holy Bible movie prop" shows several possible examples. -- The Anome (talk) 11:46, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Bibles come in all shapes and sizes and there are several editions that would fit that description. If you go to a Christian bookshop I'm sure they'll have one.--Shantavira|feed me 12:08, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Gideon's Bible is quite common, is found in almost all motel and hotel rooms in the U.S., and usually resembles the description provided by the OP. The article does not have an illustration, but a google image search under that name will confirm this. --Xuxl (talk) 13:50, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Most of the bibles I see for personal use are pretty close to that description. Some have gold lettering instead of silver, some have vinyl covers instead of flexible leather, and some are red, green or blue instead of black, but all of them are equally plain and virtually indistinguishable. And if the movies mentioned were old enough to be in black and white, they would look even more alike. These things are virtually everywhere. I've found them in "everything's a dollar"-type stores.
 * If the film were made (or set) before the 1970s, the translation would be likely to be the King James Version for Protestants and the Douai-Rheims Bible for Catholics. Since then, any number of English translations have been published, but perhaps the New International Version is the best known. The traditional texts are still available though, and have their enthusiasts. Alansplodge (talk) 17:14, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Most of the bibles that I described before have been, in my experience, KJV or NIV. But that's probably largely due to my location. There just aren't that many Catholics where I live, and many of the Protestant (ESPECIALLY Baptist) churches hold on to the KJV. --Khajidha (talk) 02:23, 25 January 2019 (UTC)Note: I am only referring to those denominations in my area, not making a general statement about all Protestants or Baptists.

Nubian pyramids measurements
What is the seqed of the Nubian pyramids? Did the people who built it use seqed as the slope measure? I'm having a hard time finding anything about this on the net. Tx 78.0.255.160 (talk) 16:25, 22 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Hi. Here’s an answer to your first question. doi.org/10.1017/S0003598X00009923, a paper from 1935, has an appendix listing 192 pyramids in Egypt and Sudan, and giving base, height and slope (same as seqet?) measurements for a fair chunk of them. (Here is how the author defines “slope”: The angle of slope of the pyramid-face is given in the manner of the Egyptian method of stating a  slope, namely of a  vertical  rise of one cubit on  a  horizontal base of so many hands and fingers. For example, a slope of 5-2 signifies a rise of one cubit on a base of five hands and two fingers, or an angle as we express it today of 51~ 51.) The list includes many pyramids from Nuri, El-Kurru, Jebel Barkal and Begarawiyah and the slope measurements given for these vary from 60 to 68. If you will use the article to improve the Nubian pyramids article, you can request it at WP:RX. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 16:53, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Yes, the hand and fingers stuff is what I meant by seqed. I was wondering if the builders of Nubian pyramids used the same cubit/hand/finger measurement system as Egyptians of that era. 93.136.99.139 (talk) 20:56, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Chantry equivalents in other countries and post-Reformation England
In mediaeval England people with money set up trusts called chantries to pay for masses to be said for their souls after death, for a set time or in perpetuity. These trusts were repurposed or appropriated at the time of the English Reformation and the Dissolution of the Monasteries, and that was mostly the end of that in England because of protestant views about praying for the dead.

My question is: were there similar phenomena in other countries, and what was the eventual fate of these? I assume some parallel shutting-down process took place across Reformation Europe if they existed there, but what about countries that stayed with Rome? Are there perpetual endowments anywhere still paying for masses to be said for people who died centuries ago? Did these continue to be set up after mediaeval times?

I initially asked about this at Talk:Chantry because answers could help improve that article or at least link it to other relevant ones, but it feels like more of a refdesk enquiry. Beorhtwulf (talk) 21:52, 22 January 2019 (UTC)


 * The French article (chapellenie) is quite scant, but its source lists such masses prayed at Saint-Julien-de-Vouvantes and the most recent one listed was set up in 1784. So yes other countries and yes to the setting up after medieval times question.
 * The Spanish article (capellanía) adds the info that in Spain, Portugal and their colonies, they were more popular in the 16th to 18th centuries than in the medieval period (please confirm, my Spanish is rusty). 70.67.193.176 (talk) 15:15, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Vanished Kingdoms: The History of Half-Forgotten Europe mentions the chantries of the Sabaudian counts at Hautecombe Abbey, "whose chantries would not be silenced until the arrival of French revolutionary troops in 1796". Alansplodge (talk) 13:53, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The Catholic Encylopedia mentions The Vaughan Chantry in Westminster Cathedral, which was established for Bishop Herbert Vaughan who died in 1903. Whether this operates in the same way as a medieval chantry, or is a sort of memorial chapel, is unclear to me. Alansplodge (talk) 14:02, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * See also the Walsingham Chantry Chapel - The Guild of All Souls "All the departed members of the Guild are remembered, in perpetuity, at the Mass in the Guild Chapel at Walsingham on the anniversary of their deaths". Alansplodge (talk) 16:40, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you for all these replies. Beorhtwulf (talk) 16:47, 29 January 2019 (UTC)