Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2019 July 6

= July 6 =

Bizarrely high prices for books
Think of a recently published book from a non-vanity publisher: a book that's still in print, maybe a textbook for advanced undergrads from a university press, one whose RRP is €30 to €50. Now see the prices quoted for it by a variety of bookstores via Abebooks or similar.

Chances are, you'll find a number of offers of new copies, from somewhat below the RRP to multiples of the RRP, perhaps five times the RRP, possibly even higher than that. (And no, I'm not talking about signed copies, "éditions de luxe", or any other fillip of "collectibility"; just what are, according to their listings, new copies of the bog standard item.)

The first time I noticed this, I put it down to inexperienced assistants, manic optimism by the borderline insane, or some other aberration. (I mean, who would expect that someone's going to pay $150 for a new copy of a book when she can just as easily buy the same thing for $25?) However, this phenomenon is commonplace. It must surely be the result of conscious decisions by sane people in the bookselling biz. So what's the logic? (Money laundering, maybe?) -- Hoary (talk) 09:32, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I noticed this on Amazon to an extent, and mostly with books. Some of the high volume sellers use automated pricing to adjust their own asking price, usually by besting the lowest price by one cent. The autoscripts can do this multiple times an hour. Meanwhile some very expensive offers would also be there for the very same item. I have two ideas why: they’re hoping all the cheap offers will quickly sell out leaving only their item available; or their hoping for someone to assume their item and/or service is presumed to be worth the expense - you get what you pay for. Gleeanon409 (talk) 12:17, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * That is what I was thinking. Even if they sell only a fraction of the inflated items they will come out well ahead.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:31, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * There is also a business model whereby a U.S. bookseller who also ships internationally will take an order for a mint condition book for anywhere in the world that they can ship to. They then buy the copy they need from one of the low-priced but reputable sellers and have them ship it to their export facilities on the border or coast. After inspection they repackage and ship. Gleeanon409 (talk) 12:39, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, that was often the practical way of getting a book published in the UK to someone living in the US, pre-internet. Possibly AbeBooks is counting on the desire to have a book right now in this era of instant gratification.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:46, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, if these outfits don't actually have any stock, and have automated the entire process -- spidering the website to get prices, multiplying these prices by five or whatever, posting the resulting ads, spidering to make sure that the cheap offers are still there, and removing their own ads once those cheap offers have gone -- then it starts to make sense. However, somebody has to buy some of this stuff, at least now and again. I really wonder who these people might be, and why they do it. (Certainly very high-priced, very stupid books have been used for money laundering.) -- Hoary (talk) 13:21, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * For what it's worth, I have also noticed this lately. I found it quite bizarre and unbelievable.  It was quite curious and inexplicable.   I could have posted the same exact question as the original poster did.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:35, 8 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I have seen this both on Amazon (books) and on Ebay (not books) over the past few years. I asked a seller on Ebay, and the explanation given was that they were out of the item, and, rather than pay for a new listing when stock came in, they would change the price to be repellantly high, then bring it down again when they had stock to sell on that listing. Thus saving a small amount of money on relisting (I guess their profit margins are brutally low).--Quisqualis (talk) 22:01, 12 July 2019 (UTC)


 * OK. So that actually makes a lot of sense.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 14:42, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Need help with reliable sources for Harry Hay - NAMBLA content
Hi! I’ve run into a bit of a problem accessing thus assessing reliable sources demonstrating how and why Harry Hay is connected to the pedophile advocacy group NAMBLA. At an open, now very lengthy request to review what I see as WP:Undue/WP:POV concerns at the NPOV noticeboard, two sources have newly been offered as solutions:     Unfortunately I’m using Google Books so can only view some of the pages. I want ensure I’m only using content in context, and that I’m not omitting key points. This board has been very helpful in the past so I’m hopeful someone might have a solution or suggestion. Gleeanon409 (talk) 11:47, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm unsure whether you're only interested in ensuring that the Wikipedia article reflects the text or whether you're also interested in an evaluation of the sources themselves for reliability. I don't have access to the sources, but I'll give you my evaluation in case you'd find it useful.  Beacon Press is a department of the Unitarian Universalist Association, somewhat of an advocacy publisher, but still potentially useful.  Left Coast Press is an imprint of Routledge/Taylor & Francis, a globally prominent academic publisher.  I'd be hesitant to use the Beacon book, as both the publisher and the editor you linked have long histories of being activists rather than dispassionate scholars, but it could be useful for simple factual statements, e.g. "Hay did X in year YYYY".  Conversely, anything coming from T&F is highly likely to be reliable both for simple statements of fact and for theoretical analysis, and I'd need to be given a solid reason to doubt a specific book from them before I advised someone to be careful using it.  I don't know much about Hubbard (he doesn't appear to have an article here), but a quick search found him cited in a number of other LGBT-related articles, e.g. Homosexuality in ancient Rome.  That article cites a book that he edited, OCLC 1041215627, from John Wiley & Sons, another globally important academic publisher.  There's basically a 0% chance that anyone who's edited or written books published by T&F and Wiley will have written anything except solid scholarly work.  Nyttend (talk) 13:06, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you! That’s very helpful actually. The current text in the Hay article on this subject is dreadfully sourced or unsourced. Additionally it takes up a fourth of the lead where I doubt anything belongs. So I started a survey of anything that might be useful and was underwhelmed. These two sources above can likely replace all the poor ones currently being used. As luck would have I started with the Left Coast Press one, but I still can’t tell, because of the missing pages, the full context of the comments. I may have to search out a library copy or heaven forbid buy the book! Gleeanon409 (talk) 15:07, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * If you're okay with mentioning this on-wiki — where do you live? I may be able to help you see what interlibrary loan options you have, especially (as is true for some) if your local library is a member of LVIS.  Of course, if you don't feel comfortable revealing your location, just say so and I won't bug you :-)  Nyttend (talk) 16:06, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I’d rather hold back personal information for now, but I do appreciate the offer. I just confirmed a copy is on the way, not that I’m looking forward to spending even more time on this! But I’d rather we get it right even if it’s a slog to get there. Gleeanon409 (talk) 17:20, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. Hope you're able to find the book useful.  Nyttend (talk) 18:12, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Tyrers
Bellott v Mountjoy was a minor English lawsuit in 1612 that's known today because a witness was a guy named "William Shakespeare". According to our article on it:"Stephen Bellott, a Huguenot, sued his father-in-law Christopher Mountjoy, a tyrer (a manufacturer of ladies' ornamental headpieces and wigs) for..."Is there an alternate name for Mountjoy's occupation? I've linked "tyrer" to tyrer (occupation), since an established occupation should have an article; it was established enough that Tyrer is a disambiguation page for people with this name. I wonder if an article might exist under some other name, but I've never heard of "tyrer" before and don't have a clue what other names might exist. It sounds more precise than "wigmaker", like the relationship between "cabinetmaker" and "carpenter". Nyttend (talk) 12:52, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * A History of British Surnames by Richard Mckinley (p. 178) suggests that the surname Tyrer is "probably from the craft of making iron tyres for wheels".
 * However, solid support for the headdress theory (with Biblical references) comes from Our English Surnames: Their Sources and Significations by Charles Wareing Endell Bardsley, London 1875 (p. 335). From that it would seem to be more closely allied to a milliner than to a wig maker. Alansplodge (talk) 16:55, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * - Tyrer might be an abbreviation of attirer - as in tiring houses, the dressing rooms (for attiring) or green rooms of theaters in Shakespeare's day - "this hawthorn-brake our tiring-house" - Peter Quince in A Midsummer Night's Dream, Act 3 Scene 1 - Epinoia (talk) 17:21, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Queen Marau‘s travel in 1884
Are there any good secondary sources summarizing Tahitian Queen Marau‘s travel in 1884 to France? That are preferably in English.KAVEBEAR (talk) 15:16, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * The Graphic newspaper of 21 June 1884 has a number of illustrations related to Tahiti and includes the comment "Queen Marau, whose recent visit to Paris created much interest in French circles, is about five-and-twenty years of age, and is an excellent musician. She travelled practically incognito, as plain Madame Salmon, and was accompanied by her little son." MilborneOne (talk) 21:33, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * A couple more tidbits in, which mentions "she acquired a wardrobe of gowns by the Paris designer Charles Frederick Worth and visited with heads of state".
 * French sources are far more abundant, are you willing to look at those? gives her itinerary on the outward voyage: left Tahiti in 1883 and travelled via San Francisco, then train to New York, then steamer to Europe.  (spelling her name Marahu) is a three-page account; in between all the rude and racist remarks about Tahiti :( there are a few facts: she arrived by boat at Havre, she was in Paris to request an increase in her allowance, she smoked cigarettes, she was appalled by Montmartre. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 03:32, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Bell cast from silver coins
"...in its tower a silver bell, cast from metal of 200 silver-dollars donated by wealthy residents." Looking for info on silver dollars in circulation between 1855 and the turn of the century. I am trying to back my way in to the value of said bell, as far as the amount of silver contained within. It's historical value would be priceless, as the bell was lost or stolen sometime around 1920. Ditch &#8733; 15:48, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Silver dollars struck between 1840 and 1935 contained .77344 troy oz of silver and were .900 pure. There were also Trade dollars, struck mostly in the 1870s, that contained .7874 troy oz (and also .900 pure) but those never circulated much in the US. See Seated Liberty dollar and Morgan dollar.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:57, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * The OP's quote is from Fannin, Mississippi. Google was unable to find me any information about, or even a mention of, the lost bell (Wikipedia excepted), which is a bit odd - I was hoping to discover a date. Alansplodge (talk) 17:31, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The bell is mentioned in the source cited (kind of in the middle) from a historical essay found online. I have seen at least one other mention in the archives of our public library, but one or the other is probably derived from the original, as the info is pretty much the same, just worded differently. I am working with someone with family Masonic ties to see if their records can better pinpoint the date...but for now, the best I have to go on is somewhere between 1855 and 1925. 19:55, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't have made any difference in terms of the weight of the silver coins. The silver dollar remained the same weight through the period. I wonder if there were political implications to the bell? The Free Silver movement was important to the politics of the last years of the 19th century and Mississippi, like the rest of the agricultural South, was strongly for it.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:06, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The silver dollar was definitely more commonly seen after the Bland-Allison Act of 1878 required the striking of massive quantities. I would think such a bell would not easily survive the Civil War and Reconstruction unmelted. I"d focus on after 1878.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:15, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * There is a long tradition of throwing coins into the metal for a new bell–there are trace amounts of gold and silver in the Liberty Bell that probably stem from that–but I haven't heard of a bell made from coin silver. I wonder how the sound was?--Wehwalt (talk) 17:38, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Apparently it was a very unique and specific pitch, as, years later, someone reported hearing it ring at a large (unidentified) plantation in the Delta. Ditch &#8733;  20:11, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I know I said it might be postwar but there's mention of a silver bell in Mississippi here in 1861.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:19, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Weird, I just ate lunch there like 2 hours ago. (The Manship House is now a higher-ish end restaurant and events venue connected to a medical center...I did not see a bell). Anyway, thanks to y'all's help, I rough-mathed a value of about $3,000 in today's silver exchange.  I am on the trail of this bell, so if anyone has access to Masonic or behind-a-paywall genealogical records, and can do a search for "Rankin Masonic Institute" and let me know if there is any info of value to be found, I would much appreciate it.  Ditch &#8733;  21:06, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Small world. This calculator gives a value of $2,506.06. Let us know what you find out.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:10, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Reading the source for the article, it says that the institute was "in full operation" by 1855.  Alansplodge (talk) 18:47, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

The differences between males and females in sports performance
Obviously, there are many differences between males and females, when it comes to performance in sports. As a basic premise, males have more muscles (muscle mass) and strength than females. Hence, when you compare the statistics of males and females, the males will generally be bigger, faster, higher, longer, stronger, etc. (depending on the particular sport and what is being measured). My question: Look at the data comparing male performance versus female performance at this chart: Nathan's Hot Dog Eating Contest. The best female performance is less than half of the best male performance (31 versus 71, in the year 2019). What exactly would account for such a huge disparity between males and females in an eating contest? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:15, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I found:
 * Of Meat and Men: Sex Differences in Implicit and Explicit Attitudes Toward Meat.
 * Eating Heavily: Men Eat More in the Company of Women
 * Alansplodge (talk)


 * Those are related to psychology.  I am assuming there must be some anatomical or physiological distinction. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:31, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Could it be as simple as the fact that males (on average) are larger than females (on average)? Larger overall size would equal larger individual organs, i.e. stomachs. --Khajidha (talk) 17:31, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I dunno. But, I don't think that stomach size is all that relevant.  This particular contest is ten minutes long.  If a female stomach were to be "filled" (over capacity) in less than ten minutes, then your theory would make sense.  But, I suspect, both the male and the female stomach do not fill to capacity within ten minutes.  There must be some other factors at play.     Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:29, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Here's some info about how large the stomach can be stretched to. It doesn't explicitly answer the male vs. female question, but one comment says, "The volume of the human stomach varies depending on the person." Children would have smaller stomachs than adults. And it's reasonable to suppose that a larger adult might have a larger stomach than a smaller adult. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:35, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Stomach mention a size up to 4 liters. But the limiting factor may be not the stomach, but rather the pharynx or the oesophagus, and the munching. Gem fr (talk) 01:30, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Technique? Takeru Kobayashi took the record from 25 ⅛ to 50 by changing his technique. --Error (talk) 00:40, 8 July 2019 (UTC)


 * But technique would be independent of gender, no?   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 02:47, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:29, 9 July 2019 (UTC)