Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2019 June 4

= June 4 =

Financial aristocracy under socialist principles
China is apparently continuing its expansion of social credit incentives. Usually these are noticed because they equate dissent with indebtedness, but at the moment the vice versa part starts to confuse me. It sounds like they intend to have a very class based society where those on the good list can do anything with minimal hindrance and those on the bad list are banned everything, and being poor gets you on the bad list. But how in the name of Karl Marx do they explain this system using socialist sources and iconography? What am I missing here? Wnt (talk) 13:06, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Probably the same way any other supposedly Marxism-based government did: By having enough power to not feel the need to explain it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:21, 4 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Wnt -- In the Soviet Union there wasn't really a "financial" aristocracy, in that just having more money was not particularly the defining feature of the ruling elite. Rather, nomenklatura members had access to special stores carrying goods not available to ordinary Soviet citizens, special privileges such as dachas near Moscow, the ability to travel abroad, etc.  North Korea has a very elaborate system of hereditary ranked quasi-caste groups, but of course Marxism gave way to Juche ideology long ago there, and now Songun seems to be rivaling Juche... AnonMoos (talk) 16:11, 4 June 2019 (UTC)


 * I don't understand your surprise. Karl Marx and socialist sources are pretty clear that there are the good guys (communists) and the bad guys (counter-revolution supporters, if only by laziness). And, to be a good guy, you have to be a good slave, that is,
 * 1: you produce as much as can be expected from you (lest being a "saboteur"), and
 * 2: you behave morally, which includes (but not limitted to), you are happy with your earning and you spend it wisely (not drink it for instance)
 * "Obviously", since the socialist country thrive to perfection, it is on you, not on society ran by the Party, if you are poor. Meaning, you did something wrong (either on the working/earning side, or on the spending side). So you deserve a bad credit.
 * Gem fr (talk) 16:35, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
 * That last part is exactly what capitalists say: If you're poor, it's your own fault. Funny how that works out. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:32, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
 * "If you're poor, it's your own fault" aka "you deserve what happens to you" or the cosmos is just is a universal maxim that predates, and has just nothing to do with, each and every -ism. So, well, no. Gem fr (talk) 20:01, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Then why did you bring it up? :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:32, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I didn't, actually: the important sentences were "socialist country thrive to perfection"&"society ran by the Party". Gem fr (talk) 06:01, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * The Chinese Communist Party abandoned even the pretense of doctrinare Marxism–Leninism after Mao died and the reformists led by Deng Xiaopeng won the subsequent power struggle. Socialism with Chinese characteristics is the replacement, and although not spelled out explicitly in this language, the basic bargain undergirding PRC politics since Deng has been that if the people obey the Party, the Party will make China rich and powerful. There's actually a specific article on the PRC Social Credit System. Confucian and Legalist ethics, which are deeply embedded in Chinese society, place great importance on social cohesion, and in part the System is just a 21st-century technocratic way to police this, by punishing people who don't obey social norms. Another factor, as the article discusses, is that fraud, counterfeiting, and the like are a huge problem in China's domestic market. The Party knows this hurts its legitimacy, so the System aspires to make a dent in it. I don't think the System—at least intentionally—is supposed to punish people for being poor. It's supposed to punish people for not paying debts, which is a big no-no: it harms social cohesion and trust. Again, this illustrates the abandonment of Marxism, which views debt as a means for the capital-owning class to enrich itself. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 21:26, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Given that the article social credit does not have the word “China” in it, is there some reason the OP assumes that dissent is equated with indebtedness? Yes, China has an authoritarian regime that utilized facial recognition and other methods to control society. Yes, China has something called social credit (社会信用, shèhuì xìnyòng). No, the two are not related except in the realm of very bad journalism.DOR (HK) (talk) 13:22, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, the relevant article is Social Credit System. Gem fr (talk) 15:39, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Soviet–Afghan War, an engaging history book
Hi there. I know little beyond the most basic general knowledge of the Soviet–Afghan War. I've always been interested in first-world nations trying to wage conflicts in socially/culturally alien environments against guerrilla/scrappy insurgencies or opponents in the 20th century, the First Indochina War and Algerian War of Independence particularly. And I've always enjoyed reading about Soviet Russia military exploits though largely this is confined to the Eastern Front. I very much enjoyed A Savage War of Peace and Martin Windrow's The Last Valley I found a captivating book when I first discovered it years ago. I've since supplemented it with Bernard Fall.

I'm hoping that somewhere out there is an English language history of the Soviet-Afghan War, hopefully on part with Horne, Fall or Windrow, that might hit the right notes for me. I've looked through the references of the Wikipedia article for some options but have not been able to find many reviews online of the books listed there. The Great Gamble: The Soviet War in Afghanistan comes up a lot, but I couldn't tell if its a true gem or more of an airport-waiting-room kind of book. The NY Times review seems pretty favourable, but I was wondering if someone who has read it or knows the topic could suggest something before I waste money? Thanks --2A00:23C4:6C38:3500:2886:3597:54E4:F343 (talk) 17:41, 4 June 2019 (UTC)


 * I hope others have better-fitting suggestions, but if you appreciate oral history I can strongly recommend Svetlana Alexievich's Boys in Zinc. (Here are some excerpts published by Granta). As the author explains herself she "was trying to present a history of feelings, not the history of the war itself", so I realise it's not quite what you're asking. But it might complement a more analytical/summarizing book well (which, again, I hope others can suggest). ---Sluzzelin talk  18:07, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Afgantsy is an English-language history of the war from the former British ambassador to the Soviet Union. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 06:39, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I coincidentally found Alexievich's Chernobyl book in a shop today, but alas not the other one. Bought it on Amazon instead. Meanwhile for a second book it seems to be a choice between The Great Gamble, Afghantsy, and The Hidden War if any one has any recommendation 2A00:23C4:6C38:3500:8C90:7629:85DB:BEA9 (talk) 17:57, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Note the spelling: Afgantsy, no "h": might trip you up looking for it in a library or the like. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 05:02, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Do any militaries have surprise physical fitness tests?
To discourage yoyo fitness. If so are any of them fail once and you're discharged? Presumably the pass cutoff would be more forgiving than if you could "cram" for it. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:59, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
 * militaries have rather tests on a regular, week or month, basis. And they don't want some kind of "I just need to fail a test to be discharged". But they DO surprise wake you up at 2 o'clock for push-up or long run in the countryside, if that's you mean.Gem fr (talk) 05:39, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * If you fail a physical fitness test in the US Marines, you are put on remedial physical training to ensure that you pass the next test. At least that is how it is right now. They are getting noticeably lax on physical requirements. 68.115.219.130 (talk) 11:09, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * If you don't do well in remedial training, do they give you Special High Intensity Training? Edison (talk) 18:53, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * It is not possible to not do well in remedial training. It is a required two hours of intense physical workout every day. It is one-on-one, so you can't slip to the back and pretend to exercise. Note: That is how it USED to be. I don't know how it is now. They keep making physical requirements weaker so young recruits don't feel bad emotions. 68.115.219.130 (talk) 16:35, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * It's not "so young recruits don't feel bad emotions." It's because recruitment levels are abysmal, so they don't have the resources to just kick out those who perform poorly. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 16:30, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

What became of the Mahdi's head?
According to our article on the Mahdi, after the destruction of his tomb, Kitchener took his head, and it was later buried in Wadi Haifa. Do we have anything more on this? Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 22:34, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
 * So far, just sources that repeat those basics: Telegraph, New York Times. Also saw this contemporary report: Guardian. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 00:22, 5 June 2019 (UTC)