Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2019 March 7

= March 7 =

n-fold ministry in Christianity
Our article Assemblies of God in Great Britain mentions a five-fold ministry, I have seen elsewhere mention of a three-fold ministry. What are these please? Are there ministries of other foldness? DuncanHill (talk) 15:35, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
 * We have an article, Threefold office, which describes Christ's roles or "offices" as profit prophet, priest and king. This article from Catholic Answers describes the "threefold ministry" as the orders of apostle, priest and deacon. However, this article from the Evangelical tradition, describes Christ's "threefold ministry" as that he "teaches, preaches and heals the sick", based on Matthew 4:23-25.
 * 'The concept of the five-fold ministry comes from Ephesians 4:11, "It was he who gave some to be (1) apostles, some to be (2) prophets, some to be (3) evangelists, and some to be (4) pastors and (5) teachers."'
 * Alansplodge (talk) 17:14, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I think you mean "prophet, priest, and king". He spoke for God, not made excess cash.  -- Jayron 32 17:34, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Well spotted Jayron, you win today's prize. Alansplodge (talk) 17:38, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Would anyone know how those theories of ministry might interact with ideas of the universal priesthood? DuncanHill (talk) 23:35, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure it has any meaningful interaction (i.e. conflict or support) with it. In Christianity, the role of a priest is one who acts as a go-between for the believer and god.  The believer is unworthy to perform certain rites or to directly commune with the deity, so the priest acts as the intermediary.  This role is an outgrowth of the Kohen or "priest" in pre-diaspora Judaism, who were required to perform certain rites, such as perform ritual sacrifice and enter the Holy of Holies, which is where God's presence was directly encountered.  The protestant reformation introduced the idea of the "universal priesthood" in the sense that all believers should be able to commune directly with God, in the modern language this is often called the "personal relationship with God", and is a key aspect of daily religious life for Protestants. No special training or sanctification or ordination is necessary to do that, only one's earnest belief.  That is different from roles like a pastor; many Catholic priests, for example, are also pastors, so the term gets used interchangeably, but many priests are NOT pastors (for example, many Jesuit priests have a tradition of working as teachers in schools), and in many protestant denominations, pastors are only priests in the sense that all believers are.  Pastor comes from the word meaning "shepherd", and their role is as the leader of a congregation; depending on the denomination this role can vary from preaching the message only, to wide-ranging administrative and executive duties.  -- Jayron 32 16:14, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Copyright status in the UK of lapsed patent images
Hi. I understand copyright and patents are separate, but I was wondering if in UK law copyright in drawings that are used in lapsed patents will also lapse with the patent (assuming they were created for the application). There are a number I've run across recently that might benefit some of our articles, but I'm unsure if they can be used. Steve T • C 18:36, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
 * try asking at WP:MCQ. That's where the copyright gurus hang out.  RudolfRed (talk) 03:28, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Well that's a neat question. I looked through the UK government websites and laws related to this, and it's consistently stated that the copyright on a patent application is the same as any copyright on a literary work, with the exception that patents public records generally have their own additional examples of fair dealing (UK's version of fair use). No mention of the copyright expiring with the patent. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:42, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification. I'd found similar, but hoped there'd be some provision I'd missed. I thought it odd at first that the copyright wouldn't expire, seeing as the intent of patent terms is to allow others to build on the invention without restriction. But then I realised there's nothing to stop anyone doing their own version in subsequent applications; it's the image that's copyrighted, not the idea. Thanks for the link; I'd not even considered asking over there. I'll head on over if I decide to pursue this further.  Steve  T • C 09:38, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

American servicemen in the two World Wars, and their previous travel experience
Reading about the Second World War service of Adele Astaire, I started to wonder what proportion of American servicemen in each of the World Wars had been outside the USA before joining up, and then to wonder what proportion had even been outside their home states before their service. Has there been any research into these questions? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:38, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Remember that a significant number of WWI servicemen (and quite a few WWII servicemen) were born outside the United States. --Soman (talk) 19:54, 8 March 2019 (UTC)


 * DuncanHill -- I don't have any stats, but there was a well known song at the time, "How Ya Gonna Keep 'em Down on the Farm (After They've Seen Paree)?"... -- AnonMoos (talk) 23:57, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Very reminiscent of Kipling's post-Boer War Chant-Pagan: "Me that 'ave been what I've been - / Me that 'ave gone where I've gone - / Me that 'ave seen what I've seen - / 'Ow can I ever take on / With awful old England again..." Alansplodge (talk) 12:38, 9 March 2019 (UTC)