Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2019 May 14

= May 14 =

Same-sex marriage question
In countries where same-sex marriage is still illegal, what happens if one of the parties in an opposite-sex couple gets a sex change--including on their legal documents? Does their marriage become nullified, or what? Futurist110 (talk) 23:13, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Joking, right? Futurist110 (talk) 03:50, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
 * LOL!
 * LOL!


 * Here are some leads that will help you research the answer to your question. Being that there are hundreds of legal jurisdictions around the world, each with their own laws, it would be difficult to answer for the whole world.  -- Jayron 32 12:15, 15 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Here is one example: Deirdre McCloskey. She's an American who transitioned male-to-female in 1995, and "had a reluctant divorce from her wife". I think I remember that at that time no state had legal same-sex marriage. But the reluctant divorce seems to imply that the marriage was still valid—if it was automatically annulled at the time of transition, there would have been no need for a divorce (which was presumably instigated by her wife). The link mentions a book she wrote about the transition, so that book may discuss the legal ramifications. Loraof (talk) 17:12, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Also there is Jan Morris, which says "In 1972, Morris travelled to Morocco to undergo sex reassignment surgery, performed by surgeon Georges Burou, because doctors in Britain refused to allow the procedure unless Morris and Tuckniss divorced, something Morris was not prepared to do at the time.[5] They divorced later, but remained together and on 14 May 2008 were legally reunited when they formally entered into a civil partnership." Loraof (talk) 17:19, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
 * On the flip side, in this case in Singapore a marriage was annulled without either party wanting it it to be after one party completed the legal requirements for recognition of their gender [//www.straitstimes.com/singapore/rom-voids-marriage-between-same-sex-couple] [//qz.com/1129883/an-lgbt-couple-whose-marriage-confounded-singapore-is-going-to-court-after-their-union-was-nixed/] [//www.asiaone.com/singapore/singapore-couple-challenge-annulment-marriage-after-sex-change] (I wonder if that example is this one [//www.asiaone.com/health/only-son-wants-marry-girlfriend-then-go-sex-change]. That story looks to be from 2013.) Our article Transgender people in Singapore mentions that prior to a 1996 law change, the law on marriages was not aligned with the law on legal recognition of gender resulting in a woman successfully having her marriage to a transman annulled. More details on that case here [//ejournal.um.edu.my/index.php/JMCL/article/download/16284/9792/] [//www.jstor.org/stable/24865819] [//search.informit.com.au/documentSummary;dn=930982868882343;res=IELHSS] [//theprojectx.org/2016/lgbtq-policy-journal/] [//swanprojectsg.wordpress.com/2014/09/10/a-singaporean-history-for-transgender-people/]. Although that case involved one party saying they did not give proper consent as they did not know their spouse was a transman, my read from those sources is that the court did not just consider the consent issue. They also found that the marriage was void since the sex assigned at birth was the "correct" one for the purpose of contracting a marriage. The logical conclusion of this would be that a transman could marry a cisman and a transwoman a ciswoman, although I don't think this was ever tested. Meaning that in the modern case, the marriage would have been valid, and should have been allowed to be performed even after the legal recognition of gender prior to the 1996 law change.  (BTW my read is also that it's more a case that the law didn't specify how legal recognition of gender affects marriages than the law being not aligned. This isn't completely surprising since prior to the 1996 the law change, it didn't really clearly specify that same-sex marriages weren't allowed instead simply sort of assuming it with references to husband and wife etc, as is fairly common. I.E. In clearly allowing transgender individuals to marry someone of opposite sex if they'd completed the steps for legal recognition, they also, intentionally I'm sure, reduced any possibility that a same-sex marriage would be recognised.) Nil Einne (talk) 23:03, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for all of this information, you guys! Futurist110 (talk) 05:37, 16 May 2019 (UTC)