Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 April 14

= April 14 =

Charles Gordon Hopkins
What are the birth and death dates for Charles Gordon Hopkins ? KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:17, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * He is mentioned here, but I haven't accessed it:
 * —107.15.157.44 (talk) 06:12, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The article only gives birth and death years. --Lambiam 18:01, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm seeing 3 of them on Findagrave.com. Is any of these the guy you're looking for? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:14, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * His death was registered with the British authorities in Toulon, France, if that helps any. MilborneOne (talk) 12:18, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * There is a very brief biography in The Collected Works of Gerard Manley Hopkins (p. 466) as he was Gerard's uncle. He (Gerard) is famous for The Windhover which is quite wonderful. Anyhow, that link only gives the years for Charles as 1822-1886. Alansplodge (talk) 14:01, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Some more details (but not dates) at Gerard Manley Hopkins: A Life (p. 35) by Paul Mariani, where Charles is described as "a bit of a con man". Alansplodge (talk) 14:45, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Any French or British newspapers that may have reported his death? This newspaper blurb seems to state that he was already ill by February 9th in Toulon. KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:51, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * This forum says that Hopkins was known in Hawaii as "Hapakini" but no new leads as to his death I'm afraid. Alansplodge (talk) 12:14, 15 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Essex birth records, at Ancestry.com, gives his date of birth as 21 July 1822. (Here is a link.)   No date of death though, even in user-generated content.   Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:42, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

People with short hair in ancient times
Can anyone point me to some ancient artistic depictions of people whose hair has obviously been cut to a short style? Thanks. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:32, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Do an image search for "bust of Julius Caesar"; most seem to have rather short hair (a few have forehead balding)... AnonMoos (talk) 12:49, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Ah, of course. How about substantially older than that? And anything from outside of Europe? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:25, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Changshadragon.jpg Depends what you mean by short style I guess. I would say the person in Silk painting depicting a man riding a dragon has fairly short. Of course since the person was riding a dragon, whether it was supposed to have been cut that way, or was magically like that in some other way or the person making it just didn't think about how the hair got short I can't say. Nil Einne (talk) 13:43, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Ancient Egyptian priests used to shave their heads completely, like this while children had a partial shave but with a bit left long known as "the sidelock of youth". Kids eh? Alansplodge (talk) 14:59, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Looking a bit more, for older but not outside Europe, I would say some of the La Marche (cave) cave paintings (actually etchings I think) seem to depict people with short hair [//www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1040618216312344] although it's somewhat difficult to tell and as per our article, there is some dispute over whether the paintings are authentic. There are some others shown in that paper mostly from Roc-aux-Sorciers which also possible show short hair although they are IMO even harder to make out and I don't know if there is any dispute over their authenticity. See also [//books.google.co.nz/books?id=brLNDwAAQBAJ&ots=Wqng0PVdfe&pg=PT167] and [//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2012385.stm] especially if you can't get access to the full text of the first link. We should probably also consider that many of these drawings are attempts to interpret/make out what can be seen after erosion etc by people in modern times. The one photo there sort of shows what is actually visible and [//www.donsmaps.com/rocauxsorciers.html] gives more of what can actually be seen. These is some more here . (I'm including that mostly for the images of the etchings. If you read the text, this response may be of interest [//www.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?pid=diva2%3A1227174&dswid=-422]/.) I should maybe also mention that AFAICT, one of the reasons what was found at La Marche is so controversial seems to be because the style and depictions are fairly different from a lot of other art of the era that we're aware of and some of it seems to show stuff unexpected for the era. Hence why you get stuff like [//farectification.wordpress.com/2008/12/25/cave-painting-rethinking-our-ancient-past-the-people-of-prehistoric-times-appear-to-have-lived-more-like-modern/] and [//geolines.ru/eng/publications/ONWARD-TO-THE-PAST/ONWARD-TO-THE-PAST_358.html]. I won't link to it out of copyvio concerns but you may be able to find the full text of the first link on ResearchGate. Nil Einne (talk) 16:51, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Looking for discussions about hair in the Magdalenian and paleolithic period, I found these [//books.google.co.nz/books?id=Uaa_eAfL4dIC&ots=s8gj8LFuBw&pg=PA128], [//www.jstor.org/stable/683202]/[//anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1525/aa.1999.101.2.288], [//www.thenakedscientists.com/articles/questions/did-cavemen-cut-their-hair], [//books.google.co.nz/books?id=brLNDwAAQBAJ&ots=Wqng0PXfdc&pg=PT167] which may be of interest. (For the "Bad Hair Days" ref, note although it's mostly discussing modern depictions and their meaning, it does discuss the evidence.) This albeit discussing depictions of animals [//link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00975326]/[//www.jstor.org/stable/25800565] mentions how care needs to be taken in interpreting what is shown. Nil Einne (talk) 17:23, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Some great stuff there, thanks. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 08:07, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Who is this man who is NOT Lloyd George?
This bust at Sheringham Park is labelled as being David Lloyd George, sculpted by Francis Hardenberg. Now not only does it not look at all like DLlG, Hardenberg died ten years before Lloyd George was born. Who is it? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 14:18, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Dictionary Of British Sculptors 1660-1851 (p. 187) lists his busts, depicting Gebhard Leberecht von Blücher, Edward Law, 1st Earl of Ellenborough, George IV of the United Kingdom, "General Morgan" who might be Daniel Morgan (an American), Robert Jenkinson, 2nd Earl of Liverpool and the Duke of Wellington. I have ignored his busts of Roman emperors on the grounds that they (quite rightly) eschewed moustaches. Purely on the evidence of the facial hair, my money is on von Blücher of Waterloo fame.
 * BTW, here is somebody else's bust of the hairy German. Hard to tell. Alansplodge (talk) 14:41, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Sure looks like Blücher. Have you tried sending the National Trust Collections an email asking for the correct details? They probably have more information at hand to fix that mistakes. Regards So  Why  16:00, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * According to Timothy Clifford (1992), "The Plaster Shops of the Rococo and Neo-Classical Era in Britain", Journal of the History of Collections 4:1, p. 56, Hardenberg's Blücher bust, made in 1817 for Carlton House and signed by his partner Federico Nicoli, is now at Windsor. --Lambiam 17:20, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The viewing angle is less than optimal, but the bust is not that dissimilar to some other images of DLG (e.g. here), so I am not so sure it definitely does not show DLG, which then would mean it cannot be by the hand of Hardenberg. According to these search results from the National Trust Collections website, Sheringham Park harbours a whole collection of Hardenbergs, but the years shown on that page establish that something is definitely wrong. Their homepage states, wisely, "Our records are constantly being enhanced and improved, but please note that we cannot guarantee the accuracy of any information shown on this website." You can send comments or enquiries about the collections to . --Lambiam 17:45, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I had, before asking here, raised the question with the NT and they are already looking into it. I've seen hundreds of images of Lloyd George - photos, cartoons, portraits, film, etc, and the bust is definitely not him. Quite apart from the hairline, the cheeks are wrong, the jawline's wrong, the brow's wrong. It just doesn't look like him. DuncanHill (talk) 18:14, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I s'pect the National Trust has other things to worry about right now. Alansplodge (talk) 11:52, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I thought by asking here I might be able to help them. I've told them your Blucher suggestion. DuncanHill (talk) 14:41, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm flattered. Good luck in your quest. Alansplodge (talk) 18:10, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The bust in Windsor Castle is shown here. That bust depicts Blücher and definitely looks like Blücher. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 08:52, 19 April 2020 (UTC)