Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 April 15

= April 15 =

The Bounds of Sense - pages
How many pages does the original 1966 edition of The Bounds of Sense have? If necessary, distinguish between pages and numbered pages. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 02:07, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Libraries' cataloguing records, such as this, specify 296 pages. That's usually the number of numbered pages, omitting title page, dedication page, etc. Deor (talk) 15:02, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Tutuila before European rule
Who ruled Tutuila prior to European colonialism? There was the Fa'amatai system and title holders such as the Malietoa, Mata'afa, Tuimaleali'ifano and Tupua Tamasese, together known as the Tama-a-Aiga ruled in other islands. The Tui Manua ruled in the Manua Islands. So who were the indigenous rulers who control Tutuila? -- 15 April 2020 69.209.14.47


 * Our History of American Samoa article states (without giving a source), that "[t]he islands of Tutuila and Aunu'u were politically connected to 'Upolu island in what is now independent Samoa." It is not clear from that sentence whether that connection means that Tutuila was subordinate to 'Upolu, but this page in volume 1 of a translation of Augustin Kraemer's 1903 monograph Die Samoa Inseln, suggests that the relation was that of an alliance: "gifts of Upolo chiefs [...] to their Tutuila comrades in battle, since Tutuila was obligated to stand with the Atua district in times of war". The same page has a tantalizing mention that "the family of Mauga in Pagopago ... produced the liberator of Tutuila from Tonga", without further explanation. The preceding page mentions "the Leʻiato, the most powerful family of chiefs" (of Tutuila). This suggests that Tutuila was originally ruled by Tonga, and autonomous after the liberation. --Lambiam 11:00, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Did the Conservative Party (UK) have a logo before 1982?
Thanks, Thatone weird wikier Say hi 07:29, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, the cover of their 1979 manifesto looked like this, but I don't think you would call that a logo exactly. Then there was this poster, also from 1979, which has the party name and a cross. That's more like a logo, but I don't think it was a logo for the party itself, just for that year's election campaign. --Viennese Waltz 07:55, 15 April 2020 (UTC)


 * There was a "Torch of Freedom" logo introduced by Margaret Thatcher in 1977. The "revamped" Torch referred to can be admired, side by side to its predecessor, here. --Lambiam 09:09, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅ Thanks, Thatone weird wikier Say hi 11:08, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Don't be so hasty. I don't believe the sources dating the original torch to 1977, it looks too modern for that, and indeed the Guardian source puts it at the 1980s. Then there is this (not a reliable source) which puts the hand holding the torch at 1989 and an earlier variant of the torch at 1982. My guess is that the OP's specific mention of 1982 suggests that they are aware of the original 1982 torch. I still believe the answer to the OP's question, as mentioned in my original reply, is "no". --Viennese Waltz 07:59, 16 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Agreed, some other evidence:
 * Conservative Century: The Conservative Party Since 1900 (p. 576) says: "Lawson set about giving the party what might be termed a ' corporate identity ', designing the blazing - torch logo in 1982 to stand for Olympian ideals..."
 * The Lawson in question is not (as I assumed) Nigel Lawson, but PR guru Sir Christopher Lawson. This led me to:
 * Images of Power: How the Image Makers Shape Our Leaders (p. 120) which says: "...business embraced these new ideas more enthusiastically than political parties, but when Sir Christopher Lawson arrived from the former to advise the latter in 1981, the design revolution finally conquered the political process. Lawson was aghast to find that the Tory party effectively had no logo, just a collection of miscellaneous symbols representing each small outpost of it. He immediately set about remedying the situation, developing a design based on a combination of the Olympic flame and the Union Flag, which, after much opposition from the more old-fashioned wing of the party, was adopted for the 1983 election".
 * Also Britain at the polls, 1983: a study of the general election (p. 43): "Marketing developments included the introduction of a meticulously researched logo: a short Olympic flame symbolizing leadership, striving to win, dedication, and a sense of community".
 * Alansplodge (talk) 15:00, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * And finally, From Soapbox to Soundbite: Party Political Campaigning in Britain since 1945 (p. 203), which confirms the above and also details the introduction of the hand-and-torch logo in 1989 referencing the Statue of Liberty at the instigation of Brendan Bruce, apparently because the old one resembled "an ice cream cone or a Bulgarian conductor's cap badge". This confirms the dates given in Viennese Waltz's "unreliable" link above. Alansplodge (talk) 15:07, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Wow. Thanks for that! Very detailed. Thanks, Thatone weird wikier Say hi 15:22, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I have added a new subsection: Conservative Party (UK), so that journalists won't have to guess in future. Alansplodge (talk) 18:23, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

By the way, article Rosette (politics) may need updating... AnonMoos (talk) 19:18, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

US monument
What monument in the US is this one? Thanks. Reverse image searching was unhelpful because it's a screenshot 212.180.235.46 (talk) 15:57, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * It looks like a decorative element on a large marble building, perhaps a neo-classical church building or something like that. The image doesn't even give enough context to estimate size.  It does not appear to be a prominent monument of any that I know of, and I can't even identify the city from the background buildings.  Can you say more about where you found the image or got the screenshot from?  With some more clues, someone may be able to help you better.  -- Jayron 32 18:04, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I think it's the USS Maine National Monument in Central Park Manhattan (specifically, this bit). Never been to the US, but Google is a wonderful tool. Alansplodge (talk) 18:48, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Nice! -- Jayron 32 18:59, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Indeed! I'd be interested to know how Alan used Google to identify that. Or was it just used to confirm the location after recognizing the thing from memory, if Alan is familiar with that part of NYC? --76.71.6.31 (talk) 19:15, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * He's never been to the USA at all. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  23:29, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh right, he did say that. Anyway, as I say, I'd be interested to know how that answer was found. --76.71.6.31 (talk) 02:30, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * There are some buildings in the background, but you'd probably already have to know what they are. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:33, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The skyscrapers make NYC a plausible location. A Google search for "statues in New York City" gives this one as one of the first results. --Lambiam 07:44, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Pretty much how I did it. It looked like an American sort of eagle to me, (I was thinking of the Chrysler Building eagles) and I'm certain I've seen that skyscraper with the detached spire before (still not sure what it is). I tried "New York monument" and there are a LOT of those, so then I tried "Manhatten monument" and Bob's your uncle. Alansplodge (talk) 14:18, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Looks like Central Park Tower. How would you like to live on the 150th floor of that building? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:36, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * That's the one! The "spire" seems to have been part of the unfinished structure. Alansplodge (talk) 15:12, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Alan. --76.71.6.31 (talk) 21:26, 16 April 2020 (UTC)


 * For those not in the know cyrillically-speaking, the symbols at the lower left, США, are the Cyrillic for S Sh A, short for the Russian Соединённые Штаты Америки, meaning United States of America, or USA. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  08:41, 16 April 2020 (UTC)