Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 August 11

= August 11 =

Question about Wikipedia: articles that are rarely edited
Not sure where to post this; so I will post here. Is there some way to find out which Wikipedia article (or articles) have remained "stable" the longest, without any edits? For example: the article Name of article here was edited on April 17, 2000, ... and the next edit was on September 4, 2019 ... i.e., 19 intervening years with no edits. Something like that. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:20, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * See Special:AncientPages. That only gives you the pages which were last edited a long time ago. It doesn't cover pages which were not edited for a long time, but have since been edited.- gadfium 05:41, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Database reports/Forgotten articles might also be of interest to you.- gadfium 05:43, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * One can do a database query to find the articles with the least recent edits, but that is almost meaningless, because there are constantly robotic mass editing sprees that make inconsequential changes to 10000's of articles (renaming a category mentioned in the article is an example). It is not trivial to distinguish those edits from meaningful edits or even edits made by humans.  So it is hard to say which articles were least recently edited by a human.   The wiki software even throws away some metadata that could help tell, 30 days after the edit.  2602:24A:DE47:BB20:50DE:F402:42A6:A17D (talk) 00:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * List of Donald Trump's altruistic deeds? (Still empty?) Clarityfiend (talk) 02:20, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 00:21, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Gem family, solicitors, of Birmingham, England
This source:



has a "T .Gem" of Birmingham as a solicitor in the 1812 trial of William Booth (forger). Is that the father, or anther relative, of Harry Gem, a Birmingham solicitor born in 1819? Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:41, 11 August 2020 (UTC)


 * "Harry’s father William Gem had twin sisters: Helen Maria and Mary born in 1795" The Harry Gem Project - Harry’s Aunt Helen.
 * However, Aston - Pearl Button Makers by John Houghton mentions "April 4, 1791, Thomas Gem, the solicitor to the committee for the protection of the button trade". So maybe an uncle or cousin? Alansplodge (talk) 13:31, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Seems likely, I have another source giving Booth's solicitor as "Thos. Gem" Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:31, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I guessed that "T" was Thomas, my next guess would have been Tobias but that seemed much less likely. If the younger Gem had had a close relative called Thomas, it would explain why he was known as Harry and not Tommy. Alansplodge (talk) 16:49, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * [On further thought] Or maybe a grandfather? We need some input from a genealogist... Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:09, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I am now told, off-wiki:

"Harry (Tennis) Gem’s father William was a lawyer. His father, Harry’s grandfather, was Thomas Gem, christened in 1767 and married in 1791 to Maria Hobson. He is recorded as living at Wood End House."

but my contact is travelling and does not have access to his sources at present. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:32, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Mugshot
Did New York police took mugshot in 1870s? If they did where can I find them? TIA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Horus1927 (talk • contribs) 15:18, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Our relevant article is mug shot. Regarding New York, the linked article in the New York Times states,

"Some experts say that the first photographs used for law enforcement were probably taken of prisoners in Belgium in 1843 and 1844, possibly so that the prisoners could be identified if they committed other crimes after being released. By 1857 the New York police had adopted the practice, opening a gallery so that the public could come in to see the daguerreotypes of what Mr. Michaelson calls “hookers, stooges, grifters and goons.”"
 * See the article in question here, it may give you some useful leads. Eliyohub (talk) 16:34, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * NYC Municipal Archives Collections - Browse NYPD & Criminal Prosecution but seems to be from 1915 onwards. Alansplodge (talk) 19:44, 11 August 2020 (UTC)-

How do you find old mugshots? Visit your state's department of corrections website. Every state in the U.S. should have a website, and you can use the inmate locator to find information about the prisoner. Some states will also publish mugshots. Type “your state” and “department of corrections” into your favorite web browser.Mmmarkkk (talk) 01:42, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Anyone interested in mugshots over the past 150 years should read Mug Shots: An Archive of the Famous, Infamous, and Most Wanted, a 2009 picture book by Raynal Pellicer. The book does not cover the photos of the NYPD of the 1870s but includes many photos of American criminals and celebrities from the late 19th century through the 20th century. Plus many British and European subjects. The author admits he selected what he considered to be the most interesting of potentially millions of photos he could have chosen. I bought this book when working on a featured article, Canadian drug charges and trial of Jimi Hendrix, and the book features photos of Hendrix and Jim Morrison on the cover. It is far more than a celebrity mugshot book. It covers Mafia figures, mass murderers, terrorists, anarchist bombers, assassins, dictators and civil rights leaders. I recommend it. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  05:02, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Stark's expedition to measure seawater gold
The story of Fritz Haber's attempt to collect gold from seawater is well known. There were other little known groups as well. From Walter Stark's thesis paper I learned that his supervisor Prof. Emil Baur was active on the topic for 30 years ! During WW2 Stark was doctoral student of ETH-Zurich and went on a expedition to measure seawater gold. I am fascinated that 22 year old Stark was traveling around in ships to measure seawater gold. Such expeditions must have been costly and some company must have sponsored it. Does anyone know about this expedition? Or any other Swiss projects to collect gold from seawater? Horus1927 15:33, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Executive orders in practice - limited to those binding by law?
My question is about executive orders. Note that this question is not limited to the current POTUS (Trump). I'm also curious about how Presidents past made use of executive orders.

Now: Executive orders have the binding force of law in two circumstances:
 * 1) When the order invokes a power directly given to the President by the constitution (e.g. the President's powers as commander-in-chief of the military, or his powers to commute or pardon Federal criminals). OR
 * 2) When the order invokes a discretion granted to the President in legislation. (delegated legislation)

Okay. So my question is this: in practice, do Presidents limit the issuing of executive orders to these two categories? Or, do they ever issue executive orders which fall outside these two areas (and thus do not have the binding power of law)?

If the answer is the latter, what is the point in making an order that the person or agency to whom it is directed has no duty to obey? Is it simply a case of the President's wishes having influence, even if legally, they are not binding?

A "secondary" question, I suppose, is, have Presidents varied in the frequency of their use of these sorts of executive orders (in areas where they do not have binding power)? Eliyohub (talk) 15:40, 11 August 2020 (UTC)


 * The rule of thumb, in both parties, is “it is far easier to ask forgiveness, than to ask permission.” Issue the order; see how much push-back arises. Trust your own cabinet-secretary-in-charge of the issue to loyally strive to Do The Boss’ Bidding. Rinse, and repeat. DOR (HK) (talk) 01:08, 12 August 2020 (UTC)


 * It's exceptionally rare, and perhaps unheard of, for a President to issue an executive order that directly and deliberately contravenes a statute or Supreme Court ruling. Occasionally, there will be executive orders that implement some policy through prosecutorial discretion (such as the DACA system) despite the outcome contravening the statute it purports to administrate. More often, an "illegal" or "unconstitutional" executive action is one that reasonable minds could debate, but some politician gives interviews and claims it's an affront to democracy or violates the President's oath to administrate the laws. Even those executive orders that are patently a reaction to a court ruling are themselves usually good faith efforts both to comply with the ruling and to achieve the executive's political goals. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 05:11, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I can't parse your opening sentence. For something to be "exceptionally rare", there must be at least one instance. But then you say it's "perhaps unheard of". So, has there been a case you can cite, or not? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  16:43, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It's certainly at least exceptionally rare, and it may not have happened before. This is what I mean. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 17:11, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The executive orders of at least the two most recent presidents have been complained about by the opposition, and court cases have resulted. It's really a question of whatever the president can "get away with". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:59, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Meh. I don't look it as them trying to get away with anything. I look at it as trying to achieve political goals with what's available through creative lawyering when a legislative answer is unavailable. The systematic use of prosecutorial discretion to implement DACA, for instance, is rather genius, even if it's unquestionably contrary to the statute it's purportedly enforcing. For most people, whether those executive actions are legitimate more often turns on whether they support their political goals than an overriding belief in legislative supremacy (of course, there are exceptions). 199.66.69.67 (talk) 16:32, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Either way, it's the same thing. Either they accomplish what they wanted to, or the courts (or even Congress!) can put the brakes on it. In the case of the two most recent guys, they acted because Congress wouldn't. And in some cases it worked, and in others it didn't. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:24, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Why do Southern U.S. schools start so early?
Are they still 180 days nationwide? (not sure if half days are half or one for the purposes of making up snow days to reach 180 and stuff) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:10, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * https://heavy.com/news/2017/08/why-does-the-south-start-school-earlier-sooner-than-the-north-united-states-first-day-of-school-date-time/ --Khajidha (talk) 21:58, 11 August 2020 (UTC)