Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 August 5

= August 5 =

What happens if there are delays in determining the winner in the USA 2020 Presidential elections?
There has been some talk of this idea lately (i.e., delay problems in determining the winner in the USA 2020 Presidential elections). So, hypothetically, say that there was some (valid) delay in counting the votes and determining the winner. Further, let's say that this (valid) delay extends beyond January 20th. What would happen? And who would "hold" presidential powers during that time period? Has this ever come close to happening ... or actually happened? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 01:56, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The process in the 2000 United States presidential election provides a recent precedent. Note that this idea we need to instantly know the winner is not a constitutional requirement. We've simply gotten used to it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:10, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * As Bugs suggests, Bush v. Gore provides much of the framework for how this is handled; in short, there is no permissible delay, and votes not counted in time are not counted. See also, especially and  for what happens if a state fails to appoint electors in time (which could happen if the votes in the popular election couldn't be counted in a timely fashion and state law doesn't adequately provide for a deadline). What isn't entirely clear is what happens if a state completely and utterly fails to appoint electors—whether that state forfeits its electoral votes, for example. But it seems likely that every state provides a method for choosing electors when there are vacancies attributed to them in the electoral college. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 04:04, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * If both the presidency and vice-presidency are vacant, the Speaker of the House is next in line to become acting president. Then getting a shot of obedience nanochips will be declared mandatory and those who refuse will be locked up in death camps. This must be true because I read a warning on the Internet. As to potential delay problems, see also the (lengthy) article Preparing for a Disputed Presidential Election: An Exercise in Election Risk Assessment and Management from Loyola University Chicago, also linked to above in another thread by Alansplodge. Science fiction or future history? Now let me get me some more TP, just in case. --Lambiam 10:32, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * 2000 was mentioned above, but that was the second disputed election with delayed results. The first was the election of 1876.  See 1876 United States presidential election and Electoral Commission (United States).  Back then, Inauguration Day was March 4, and the official results were only certified by Congress on March 2.  That is by far the closest between results and inauguration, and given that by 2000 the inauguration had been moved to January, the absolute longest time between election day and certification of results.    -- Jayron 32 12:35, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:22, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Achaemenid historians
It's acknowledged that "the history of the Achaemenid dynasty... is known particularly through the accounts of Greek authors... the somewhat muddled tales of several Old Testament books; and native Iranian sources—the (usually trilingual) royal inscriptions". Does it suggest that they didn't have their own historians and historiographers? Apparently, as in the case of several other empires, Achaemenids should have had someone specialized to record their imperial deeds. Brandmeistertalk  09:28, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

The earliest known historian was Herodotus (5th century BCE), "widely considered to have been the first writer to have treated historical subjects using a method of systematic investigation—specifically, by collecting his materials and then critically arranging them into an historiographic narrative."

Recording of deeds in official inscriptions and other forms of royal propaganda predate Herodotus, but they are far from detailed historical accounts. Dimadick (talk) 09:38, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yep, on a second thought it seems they put emphasis on royal inscriptions rather than historians. But that might have been odd even by contemporary standards, as by the 4th century BC, for example, many other civilizations already had their own historians (Romans, Greeks, Chinese). Brandmeistertalk  09:50, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * If the Achaemenid dynasty employed historians, the most likely medium for them to record their historiography in the earlier period are clay tablets. In the later period they may have used papyri. If so, these tablets and papyri may have been lost in the burning of Persepolis; the archives that have survived are administrative archives. --Lambiam 11:10, 5 August 2020 (UTC)


 * See the Behistun inscription and Old Persian cuneiform articles: in summary, the surviving sources from other languages that gave lists of Persian kings provided context needed to understand cuneiform inscriptions. Blythwood (talk) 20:16, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Is there a place where I can conduct Human subject research without regulations?
Is there a place where I can conduct Human subject research without regulations?--77.126.18.88 (talk) 14:51, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * What kind of research? <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 14:54, 5 August 2020 (UTC
 * I want to test a drug against covid-19. So I will need to infect people with the disease, and let them use the drug.
 * No, you don't "need" to do that. There are plenty of better protocols for that. Also, if that is the degree of your understanding of drug development, you should not be trusted with such a task, regulation or not. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:52, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * please science is pluralistic; respect my autonomy and my scientific integrity, we need a different strategy, otherwise innocent people may lose their lives. Does anyone know a Covid-19 free place? which has no regulations regarding medical experiments? Also with a low gdppp?


 * As far as I am aware, there is no country on Earth where unfettered human experimentation is permitted within domestic law. In any case, permitting such experimentation would surely violate one or more jus cogens norms and subject the nation permitting it to significant sanctions and other countermeasures from the international community. That said, this is the ideal, and I'm sure someone at Human Rights Watch would tell me about all sorts of government-sponsored human experimentation that the international community has not redressed. But even so, that would be "regulated" in a way that those examples would not satisfy OP's strange question. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 19:42, 5 August 2020 (UTC)


 * If there is a place where you can conduct research on human subjects without regulation, you still shouldn't. The fact that you want to is a very dark mark, and not in your favor. If you were actually autonomous, you wouldn't need the cooperation of others; if you actually had scientific integrity, you would already know better. - Nunh-huh 19:46, 5 August 2020 (UTC)


 * "[O]therwise innocent people may lose their lives" - yet you plan to "infect people with the disease, and let them use the drug", when you have no guarantee your drug will work. "Scientific integrity"? Give us a break. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:02, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

We have a Wikipedia article Human challenge study, but the results of an underground unsupervised unlicensed human challenge study would be considered worthless by mainstream medicine... AnonMoos (talk) 21:19, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Right, this is a good point that applies even to those with what would charitably be called unconventional ethics: The challenges of setting up a study with the appropriate controls are such that, without funding (which would be contingent upon following established protocols), the conditions of testing would be such that the study's outcomes would be just about worthless. And, let's face it, if you want to test something in an uncontrolled environment, there is no shortage of people with confirmed diagnoses who would be willing to try a new drug. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 22:05, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay I thought about it, and I believe that Syria and North Korea are my top candidates. Does anyone know where I can find cheap unemployed Syrians or Koreans?
 * In Syria or North Korea, obviously. Blueboar (talk) 15:21, 6 August 2020 (UTC)


 * OP blocked for trolling. Not sure why we're feeding them. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:24, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry for responding to a troll post, but for a look at non-consensual drug experimentation that actually happened, (and in the U.S. of A, of all places!) readers may be interested in reading the fascinating and creepy goings-on in Project MKUltra and Operation Midnight Climax. Stranger than fiction, eh? 101.188.200.64 (talk) 17:33, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * See also Unethical human experimentation in the United States, if one is interested in this sort of thing. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.121.160.95 (talk) 04:16, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Short Story Collection by Japanese Author
A few years ago, a friend of mine had recommended a book of short stories by a Japanese author that I'd enjoyed. The stories were funny and interesting. I've completely forgotten the name of the collection and the authors name. The only story I can really remember is one where a husband and wife rob a McDonald's for a certain number of Big Mac's because they think the husband had been cursed. Like I said, funny and interesting. I know it's a long shot, but does anyone know what I'm talking about? 2600:100E:B126:C313:4190:1E30:CD3C:9B7F (talk) 19:57, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The Elephant Vanishes by Haruki Murakami? --Amble (talk) 20:07, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Good find Amble. WikiP even has an article for the specific short story The Second Bakery Attack. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 20:12, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes!!! Thank you! 2600:100E:B126:C313:4190:1E30:CD3C:9B7F (talk) 20:24, 5 August 2020 (UTC)