Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 December 19

= December 19 =

Lord Tennyson's moniker
I asked this elsewhere back in May, but I've had no response.

The name by which we generally know the poet Tennyson, viz. "Alfred, Lord Tennyson", seems to involve a unique formula: , Lord . I'm not aware of any other cases. Are there any? Even so, they'd be pretty rare. Where and how did this arise, and how come the form hasn't been extended to other peers? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  09:07, 19 December 2020 (UTC)


 * It definitely used to be an accepted form in which to give a peer's title, not just Tennyson's. This is what the 1911 edition of Whitaker's Peerage says:


 * When the word "Lord," or any other title of honour, is added to a Christian name, as "Alfred, Lord Tennyson," the title "Lord T." implies an actual Peer, and the "Alfred " shows which one of the line is intended (the form " Lord Alfred" could only be the courtesy-title of some younger son as above); and so we have "Edward, Earl of Derby," "Maria, Duchess," &c. In the Roll of the Peers as officially printed each nobleman is designated by the prefixing to his title of the entire series of his Christian names. The leading name suffices for less formal use.


 * Clearly it isn't and wasn't the only received way for a peer to identify himself, but I imagine Tennyson chose that form rather than plain "Lord Tennyson" because by 1884, when he got the title, he was already famous as "Alfred Tennyson" and didn't want to lose the brand, if you'll forgive a disgusting expression. --Antiquary (talk) 11:10, 19 December 2020 (UTC) I now see my last point was made at the other end of your link.  Pereant qui ante nos nostra dixerunt. --Antiquary (talk) 11:16, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The Roll of the Peerage is available online, and still gives the titles in that form, e.g. "James Harry Lord Abinger". So it seems "Alfred, Lord Tennyson" is the pedantically correct form, give or take a comma. --Antiquary (talk) 11:46, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Another example of everyday use is Thomas Lord Audley School, which is named after Thomas Audley, 1st Baron Audley of Walden. Alansplodge (talk) 12:17, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
 * See also The Life of Horatio Lord Nelson. Alansplodge (talk) 12:48, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
 * And Speeches of Edward Lord Lytton, The Life of Edward Lord Hawke, The Sonnets of Edward, Lord Thurlow, Edward, Lord Carson, Edward, Lord Griffin, and The Autobiography of Edward, Lord Herbert of Cherbury, without moving on to other Christian names. I suspect a list of examples in ordinary use could be continued almost indefinitely, especially from 19th-century sources. --Antiquary (talk) 13:03, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes I'll give another example: the owner of the race horse Arkle was often referred to as Anne,Duchess of Westminster. She acquired the title Duchess when she married the Duke. By the time Arkle was famous there was a new Duchess, the wife of her deceased husband's nephew so there were two Duchesses and the name Anne was used to distinguish the two. As for the title Lord, this title can be used from any peer. British peer's come in ranks with Duke at the top and Baron at the bottom. As you go down the ranks use of "Lord" becomes more common in referring to them. A Duke is rarely referred to as "Lord" Marquesses only sometimes, Earls and Viscounts more frequently, and Barons are only referred to as "Baron" in very formal circumstances. "Baroness" is used more frequently to show that a female peer is a peer in her own right rather than that she is a peer's wife.. Baronesses have only been commonly appointed comparitively recently co-inciding with the Life Peerages Act 1958 and the need for female members of the House of Lords being recognised. Hope this helps. Spinney Hill (talk) 14:09, 19 December 2020 (UTC).


 * I stand enlightened. Thanks, all. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:39, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Alfred, Lord Tennyson
Following on from the above question I see our article says he was the first person to be made a peer because of his writing. Does anybody know if any earlier peer was created for writing or any of the other arts or sciences or even entertainment? All earlier peers I can think of were enobled for being military leaders eg Wellington,Nelson etc or for being rich in terms of land or money eg Thomas Coke the Earl of Leicester, or being friends with royalty and being in politics eg Robert Dudley,Earl of Leicester. There have been plenty since Tennyson of course. Spinney Hill (talk) 14:22, 19 December 2020 (UTC).


 * As far as I can make out Kelvin was the first peerage for a scientist, and that was in 1892, eight years after Tennyson. Humphry Davy in 1818 was the first baronetcy (not a peerage) for a scientist. Much earlier, Francis Bacon was of course both knighted and ennobled, but that was for his political work rather than his scientific and philosophical output. DuncanHill (talk) 14:32, 19 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Benjamin Disraeli of course was a famous novelist, but his 1876 peerage, eight years before Tennyson's, was for political work. DuncanHill (talk) 14:36, 19 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Ditto the historian and poet Thomas Babington Macaulay in 1857. --Antiquary (talk) 15:25, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for this. Coming from Leicestershire I should have remembered Macaulay but I didnt realise he was an MP and a minister. Before anybody mentions the poet Byron, he wasnt of couse the first Baron Byron. Does anybody else have any ideas? Otherwise it looks as though Tennyson wins.


 * This is a related list of authors who have received Honours (not peerages, i.e. knighthoods etc.) An actual peerage would have been much rarer, of course, and I can't find anyone before Tennyson. Prior to the 19th century, peerages and knighthoods and the like were given out almost exclusively for political and military reasons.  -- Jayron 32 12:25, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Nellie Bly and the American Seamen’s Association, 1921
Good morning. In Brooke Kroeger’s comprehensive tome “Nellie Bly,” she credits the journalist and crusader with establishing the American Seamen’s Association (p. 489-90.). Bly at the time was angered by American shippers’ use of foreign labor for their crews, and pressed for ‘buy American’ policies, as well as aiding them and advocating for social justice on their behalf. Bly reported a membership of 20,000 seamen within two months of founding the organization. However, no internet searches for that or similar terms yields any reference to her as a founder. Kroeger provides no citation for this, so I’m stuck. Do you have any tips? Thank you!

Leslie Brower — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.92.30.182 (talk) 14:48, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The book you reference seems to cite a New York Evening Journal article from May 14, 1921 (see page 603). Unfortunately I haven't been able to find ready access to Journal articles from that period. There may be a database that provides it, but I don't have access. More general searching revealed an article in the August 26, 1922 Marine Journal describing Bly as the "late President" of the Association, and discussing efforts to transfer control of the Association from Bly's estate. From the character of the article (no named author, reads like a release) and the other material in the same area (including a legal notice) it's a bit more like a classified than an actual article. Given there's basically no reference to this association elsewhere, I half suspect it dissolved, changed names, or was absorbed after Bly's death. It's worth noting that searching for this organization is a bit difficult; false positives for the Norwegian-American Seamen's Association and Jewish American Seamen's Association are common. 69.174.144.79 (talk) 15:44, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Searching is also complicated by Nellie's real surname of Seaman (I have added her to Seaman (name)); otherwise I found nothing that User:69.174 above didn't. Alansplodge (talk) 13:14, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

"Is it so dreadful a thing then to die?"
This is oft ascribed to Nero, shortly before his death, and said to be a quotation from Virgil's Aeneid. I have also seen it said to be a quotation from Homer's Iliad. So - is it Vergil or Homer? Or did Vergil nick it from the blind bard? Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 16:22, 19 December 2020 (UTC)


 * The Latin quote is "usque adeone mori miserum est?" which appears here: VIRGIL, Aeneid: Book XII, line 646..
 * Perhaps there's some confusion with the final penultimate words of Nero attributed by Seutonius: "Hark, now strikes on my ear the trampling of swift-footed coursers!" which comes from the Ilead 10.535 (in this translation rendered as "there is a sound in my ears as of the tramp of horses").
 * Suetonius, The Lives of the Caesars: The Life of Nero actually gives the Aeneid quote to one of the guardsmen who refuse to run off with Nero when his end is nigh. Alansplodge (talk) 16:38, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Note that Suetonius gives Nero's final words thus: "He was all but dead when a centurion rushed in, and as he placed a cloak to the wound, pretending that he had come to aid him, Nero merely gasped: 'Too late!' and 'This is fidelity!' With these words he was gone...". Presumably not quotes from anyone at all. --Antiquary (talk) 17:24, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Bugger off!, Matt sealed my fate. Look at the blood, I'm dead ass. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:16, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Who the heckius is Matt? Clarityfiend (talk) 06:01, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Do we know who did the stab that sealed Nero's fate? Then replace Matt with his name. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 06:51, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Nero actually stabbed himself in the neck "aided by Epaphroditus, his private secretary". There was no Matt. Alansplodge (talk) 13:32, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
 * That's right; I never touched him! Matt Deres (talk) 23:11, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
 * He was only playing possum. They secretly took him to the physician Gaius Mattius Lygdamus, but unfortunately for Nero, "Matt" wasn't a fan of the Hippocratic oath. Yeah, that's it. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:59, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I have made a correction. Not as amusing as King George V whose alleged last words were "Bugger Bognor". Alansplodge (talk) 17:36, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Whose actual last words were reportedly the less-amusing "God damn you!":. 2603:6081:1C00:1187:48A6:5505:6856:37FD (talk) 19:48, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Emperor Hadrian, via Margaret Yourcenar's 'translation' was much more elucidating. "Little soul, gentle and drifting, guest and companion of my body, now you will dwell below in pallid places, stark and bare; there you will abandon your play of yore. But one moment still, let us gaze together on these familiar shores, on these objects which doubtless we shall not see again… Let us try, if we can, to enter into death with open eyes…" - Nunh-huh 16:08, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Or the last words of Julius Caesar, according to Carry On Cleo (1964); "Infamy! Infamy! They've all got it in for me" :-) Alansplodge (talk) 16:39, 20 December 2020 (UTC)