Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 December 2

= December 2 =

The Christmas Public Holiday In Scotland (1958) - Part 1
Christmas in Scotland mentions that : A 1640 Act of the Parliament of Scotland abolished the Yule Vacance (Christmas recess).. [and that] Christmas Day did not become a public holiday in Scotland until 1958. who in Parliament proposed this decision to restore Christmas, and make it a public holiday, in Scotland, and why and how did it come about ? Gfigs (talk) 05:16, 2 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Curiously, this House of Commons debate suggests that Christmas Day (but not Boxing Day) was already a Scottish bank holiday in 1938. A search of Hansard for 1957 and 1958 yielded no results. Alansplodge (talk) 08:52, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Bank Holidays Act 1871 says that "The Act designated four bank holidays in England, Wales and Ireland... and five in Scotland (New Year's Day; Good Friday; First Monday in May; First Monday in August and Christmas Day)". Alansplodge (talk) 09:01, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * thank you, there is a citation in 1958 in Scotland under Events and 25 December, although not sure how to interpret this.. Gfigs (talk) 09:43, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * It may rest on the difference between a bank holiday (when technically only the banks have to close) and a public holiday. Anecdotally, my mother who spent part of her childhood in Glasgow, says that Christmas was a noirmal working day in the early 1930s, so perhaps only office workers had the day off? Alansplodge (talk) 09:45, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * A couple of literary references to confirm this for England: in A Christmas Carol, when Scrooge wakes on Christmas day he sends a boy to a poulterer's to buy a turkey for Bob Cratchit (who was grudgingly given the day off); and The Diary of a Nobody has the entry: "CHRISTMAS DAY.—We caught the 10.20 train at Paddington, and spent a pleasant day at Carrie’s mother’s." AndrewWTaylor (talk) 11:15, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * We have an article on Public and bank holidays in Scotland which looks at the difference between bank holidays and public holidays. The Scottish government has a page where you can look up bank and public holidays. DuncanHill (talk) 12:04, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * And looking at, for example, Aberdeen City Council, we see Christmas Day listed as a local public holiday. On the Scottish govt. website it is listed as a bank holiday. So it's both a bank holiday and a public holiday. DuncanHill (talk) 12:07, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Is now, but was it in 1958? That's the crux of the question. Alansplodge (talk) 17:57, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * You'd have to check each Scottish council competent to declare local public holidays that existed at the time. DuncanHill (talk) 20:50, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Correction to Alansplodge's comments :The extra holiday in Scotland mentioned in the 1871 Act was New Years' Day which was not a holiday in England and Wales until 1974. The May bank holiday was not the first Monday in May but Whit Monday. For those who may not be familiar with the words "Whit Monday," it is the day after Whitsunday which is a Christian festival the date of which varies in the same way as Easter. It is defined as seven weeks after Easter. Whit Monday was replaced as a Bank Holiday in the 1960s or 70s because of commercial pressure to fix the day.. Whitsun is still celebrated by the Church but the bank holiday is now the last Monday in May. 1 May did not become a bank holiday until later It was introduced by the Labour Government in 1978 as not only was it a traditional holiday which was no longer observed but it was also the international Labour Day (not the same as the US Labor Day.) It was at first always to be 1 May unless that fell on a Saturday or Sunday and the first Monday in May 1978 happened to be 1 May but from 1979 it has always been the first Monday in May except when replaced by another date completely (eg 8 May 2020 to celebrate 75 years since VE day. (Spinney Hill (talk) 01:11, 4 December 2020 (UTC) Note also that in England and Wales there is no statutory concept of a public holiday except as "bank holidays" but according to the article on the 1871 Act Christmas was generally observed as a holiday in England and Wales and it was not thought necessary to make it a Bank Holiday. I remember buses and trains running on Christmas Day and my father said professional football (soccer) matches were played on Christmas morning.before World War II. I'd be interested to know when this stopped. Pubs are normally not open in the evening now but are still (Covid rules permitting) open for a morning/early afternoon session. Boxing Day and St Stephen's Day are the same day (26 December-i.e. the day after Christmas Day)Spinney Hill (talk) 13:53, 2 December 2020 (UTC)


 * The trouble we had nailing that old wives' tale!  Banks don't have to close on bank holidays - they can do so if they wish and will incur no liability on maturing bills of exchange if they do.   On 27 December 2018 someone edited Bank holiday claiming Christmas Day only became a bank holiday in Scotland in 1958.   On 7 May 2019 someone provided a source for that claim.   An edit war then ensued with allegations from the 58ers of vandalism which were amicably resolved with a link to the printed copy of the Bank Holidays Act 1871.   Easter Monday and Whit Monday have never been bank holidays in Scotland. 195.147.104.148 (talk) 15:55, 2 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Correction Spinney Hill; it wasn't really my comment, I pasted the text directly from the WP article. Some work needed there methinks. I'm not sure whether Whitsun was originally a holiday in Scotland, since the Presbyterians rejected the Catholic idea of a liturgical calendar; hence the lack of Christmas celebrations. Alansplodge (talk) 17:57, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Not sure how reliable this is, but Richmond Library Services - The Origins of Bank Holidays says: "The first bank holidays were Easter Monday, Whit Monday, the first Monday in August and Boxing Day, in England, Wales and Ireland. In Scotland they were New Year’s Day, Good Friday, the first Monday in May, the first Monday in August, and Christmas Day". No luck finding the actual text of the act. Alansplodge (talk) 18:44, 2 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Queen Victoria's Christmas Tree (1848), inspired by her German husband Albert, no doubt helped to popularise Christmas in Scotland. the 1871 Christmas Bank Holiday, was probably declared through the efforts of John Lubbock, 1st Baron Avebury .would also like to mention James Edgar ,who first came up with the idea of dressing up as Santa Claus for Christmas. and the wife of Charles Dickens ,Catherine ,both of whom were born in Edinburgh.. Gfigs (talk) 05:20, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
 * there seems to be some conflict as to how the decision to make Christmas a public holiday may have come about. as Public and bank holidays in Scotland says :

"Unlike the rest of United Kingdom, most bank holidays are not recognised as statutory public holidays in Scotland, as most public holidays are determined by local authorities across Scotland."

as example, Lanimer Day was declared a public holiday, only in the Lanark area. This arrangement seems to have changed, as Wakes Week mentions :

"Councils no longer have a statutory power to set dates for public holidays following the introduction of the Employment Act 1989 and the Local Government etc. (Scotland) Act 1994."

its possible that at the time (1958), each local authority in Scotland agreed to make Christmas Day a public holiday. It's unlikely that a law was passed declaring Christmas a public holiday, in 1958. as this would have been listed in UK Acts (1940-1959) .although, mention might be made of the Christmas Day and New Year’s Day Trading (Scotland) Act 2007 referenced here Gfigs (talk) 13:47, 4 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Look, this is not rocket science.  Can we focus on where the story that Christmas has only ordinarily been observed as a public holiday in Scotland since 1958 came from?   It’s footnote no.7 on page 187 of ‘’The culture of Protestantism’’ in early modern Scotland’’ by Margo Todd of which the last sentence reads “Christmas was again banned in 1690 when William and Mary gave the Scottish parliament its way, and it did not again become an official holiday until 1958, but the purely profane Scottish New Year’s Eve, Hogmanay, remains the greater holiday”.   This is nonsense because we know it has been a bank holiday since 1871.
 * As for May Day, Callaghan’s claim in 1977 that Labour was going to make May Day a public holiday, accompanied by a request to the Queen to proclaim Monday, 1 May 1978, was no more than an election gimmick.  The unpublicised request to Her Majesty the following year to proclaim 7 May 1979 attracted unfavourable criticism. 62.31.87.56 (talk) 17:33, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Public holidays and Bank holidays are not the same thing. DuncanHill (talk) 15:41, 5 December 2020 (UTC)


 * The Scottish Government page I linked above says "Each local council in Scotland has powers to make certain days 'local' public holidays". I suspect they are more likely to be right than Wikipedia is. DuncanHill (talk) 15:07, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
 * And see, for example, Glasgow has Glasgow Fair Day as a public holiday on 18 July this year, but the neighbouring South Lanarkshire has Fair Monday, the 20th July as a holiday, except for offices in Lanark which have Lanimer Day (11th June) instead. DuncanHill (talk) 15:40, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

yes, although its difficult to imagine that each council would have taken the decision to make Christmas a public holiday independently, without some form of coordination with a committee, of some sorts. Gfigs (talk) 16:50, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I assume you were replying to my comment immediately above yours, tho' it's hard to tell as you didn't indent. Christmas is a bank holiday in Scotland. It's also illegal for some retail shops to open on Christmas Day. It's also a public holiday in those councils which I have checked. I don't see why any committee would be needed, it's not as though Christmas is some obscure moveable feast. DuncanHill (talk) 18:06, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
 * apologies, I had to delete my comments, that were copied, edited, and moved about, by someone else on this thread.. Gfigs (talk) 04:37, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
 * the Bank Holidays Act 1871 was repealed in 1971. Bank and public holidays in Scotland are now determined by the Scottish Parliament under the Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971. the decision to close schools, shops, offices etc, as example on Christmas day, is probably taken by local authorities, in each council..there is no official 1958 Act, like the Christmas Day and New Year’s Day Trading (Scotland) Act 2007, establishing Christmas as a public holiday, in each region of Scotland.. Gfigs (talk) 06:20, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
 * in 1958 the Convention of Royal Burghs may have provided a forum for discussions between local authorities..although, not sure if there may have been some consensus on Christmas as a public holiday.. Gfigs (talk) 09:32, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971 says nothing about public holidays in Scotland, only bank holidays. The Christmas Day and New Year’s Day Trading (Scotland) Act 2007 says nothing about establishing a public holiday, it merely prohibits certain types of trading on Christmas Day and New Year's Day. DuncanHill (talk) 09:35, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
 * have edited part of Public and bank holidays in Scotland. although, "most public holidays are determined by local authorities across Scotland." seems to indicate that some, are not. Furthermore, there still seems to be a conflict in Wakes Week Gfigs (talk) 10:15, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

i imagine the year 1958 would refer to the year a council in Scotland, first made Christmas a public holiday..or it may be the year the decision was coordinated between local authorities in someway, possibly through an organization such as the Scottish Association of District Councils. today such representations might occur through the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. Either way, Christmas Day did not become a public holiday until 1958 in Scotland. Gfigs (talk) 01:28, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Where did Joseph Russell and Ann Birney live ?
where did Charles Taze Russell 's Scotch-Irish parents : Joseph Lytel Russell (1813–1897) and Ann Eliza Birney (1825–1861) live, before moving to the US ? the only reference have been able to find online is a scan, of an obituary in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (18 Dec 1897) that says that "Joseph L. Russell..was born near Londonderry, Ireland..and immigrated [to the US] about 1845." have tried to contact the newspaper, although received no reply as yet, confirming this.. Gfigs (talk) 06:31, 2 December 2020 (UTC)


 * This has some more information about the Russel family. Alansplodge (talk) 10:03, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * thank you. not much interest on this online, unfortunately.. Gfigs (talk) 03:58, 3 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Here the place of death of Joseph Lytel Russell is given as Allegheny, Pennsylvania. This is confirmed by this newspaper clipping, which also identifies this as his residence. His grave is at Allegheny Cemetery, now in Pittsburgh, as is the grave of his first wife, at the same lot, apparently a family plot. Her place of death is given as Pittsburgh (which could have been in a hospital). The birth place of his daughter Mabel Rosa Russell in 1880 (from a second marriage) is given as Massachusetts, but she married after her father's death in "Pittsburgh, Allegheny, Pennsylvania". The first link also identifies Joseph Lytel Russell as registered in the "household of C T Russel" in the United States Census of 1880, which also places him at Pittsburgh (or Allegheny) at the time. This is an obituary penned by Charles Taze Russell. Joseph Lytel Russell's second wife, Emma H. Ackley, was born in Pittsburgh but died in 1929 in Saint Petersburg, Florida. --Lambiam 14:22, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
 * thanks, apologies. am trying to establish exactly where near Londonderry/Derry, N.Ireland, C.T.Russells parents lived..hopefully a town, and street address..and possibly, name of the church (Presbyterian) that they attended.. Gfigs (talk) 14:46, 3 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you'll be lucky, perhaps there's some American document that provides the information you want, but normally this kind of question remains unanswered because of the Irish Public Record Office explosion in 1922, which destroyed most of Ireland's historical records. --Antiquary (talk) 16:18, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
 * oh, interesting..thank you.. Gfigs (talk) 17:25, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Preemptive pardons?
I see stories from several reputable news organizations speculating about Trump preemptively pardoning family members and cronies. How can you pardon someone who hasn't (yet) been charged, much less convicted, of anything? Clarityfiend (talk) 06:51, 2 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Well, President Ford did it for Richard Nixon, and if there were any attempts to prosecute him after that, I think we'd know. So presumably the US Department of Justice believes you can do it. --174.95.161.129 (talk) 06:59, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Federal pardons in the United States says "Pardons have been used for presumptive cases, such as when President Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon... but the Supreme Court has never ruled on the legality of such pardons... And the ability of a president to pardon himself (self-pardon) has never been tested in the courts, because, to date, no president has ever taken that action". Alansplodge (talk) 10:23, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * It's a slippery slope. With the new report of the DOJ investigating bribes in exchange for pardons, if Trump pardons himself, Biden could pardon himself and all the other living ex-presidents and anyone else who might be touched by it. Note that the president cannot pardon anyone for state-level crimes, only federal crimes. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:40, 2 December 2020 (UTC)


 * How can you pardon someone who hasn't (yet) been charged, much less convicted, of anything? It functions very similarly to a grant of immunity from prosecution in that case. The remaining complaints about the use of the pardon power where there's a conflict of interest are generally more public policy issues than anything grounded in constitutional law. I strongly advise ignoring commentary in the news media and actually reading the legal scholarship directly. 199.66.69.13 (talk) 14:02, 2 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Well, speak of the (orange) devil. NBC News must have heard my plea: "Could Trump pardon family members if they haven't been charged with a crime?", which pretty much confirms what you all have been saying. Thanks. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:16, 2 December 2020 (UTC)


 * It's not a new topic: discussion of this has been happening for a while, at least since the Arpaio pardon a while back (Arpaio was convicted, but claimed innocence and hadn't exhausted appeals iirc). Plus, of course, there was Nixon much earlier. In the case of Trump's possible pardons (e.g. for PPP loan fraud), I wonder whether there are any state authorities to go after the people involved, in the event that Trump gives them federal pardons.  2601:648:8202:96B0:25EB:282F:5576:C543 (talk) 01:54, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

19th century hairstyle
I've noticed that in the 1st half of the 19th century many men and women had a characteristic hairstyle of short, slightly curly and wavy hairs, e.g. here during Napoleon's coronation, but also on many individual portraits. Did they maintain some artificial haircare, e.g. by applying something on the hair, in addition to trimming? This doesn't seem to be artistic portrait convention or one's individual traits. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 15:15, 2 December 2020 (UTC)


 * See Macassar oil. Alansplodge (talk) 18:49, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

The Times
Who is the author of this source? Don't want to sign up for an account to figure out. Or is it anonymous? KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:31, 2 December 2020 (UTC)


 * The lead paragraph of that article suggests Andy Martin. This seems to be the same chap as Andy Martin (author) who is described thus: "Martin was the first surfing correspondent to The Times (London)". BTW, the full title of the piece is Britain's original beach boys. Alansplodge (talk) 23:15, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Great thanks I didn't even see that at the subheading! KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:44, 3 December 2020 (UTC)


 * This webpage (almost unreadable with its weird colour scheme, and not a RS) confirms this: 'The first article ran in The Times (of London) with the headline “Britain’s original beach boys” and was written by Andy Martin. It was published on April 9, 2012. Sandy said it is about two famous Hawaiian Princes surfing in the North Sea of Great Britain in 1889.'  --Lambiam 13:37, 3 December 2020 (UTC)


 * The Times article is referenced in the section History of surfing as: It identifies the princes as "David Kahalepouli Kawanaankoa Piikoi and Jonah Kuhio Kalanianaole Pikkoi [sic]".  --Lambiam 13:50, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I made that formatting change yesterday based on the information here.KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:58, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Looking for a poem by Hans Sachs.
I'm trying to find a poem by the German poet Hans Sachs, preferably in English translation. The poem is called 'Der Kremer/Kramer mit der affen' or 'The merchant with the apes' and it tells the story of the travelling peddler who falls asleep and has his wares stolen by monkeys/apes...a popular motif from the middle ages. I can find descriptions of it, but no actual source, thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.44.199 (talk) 23:26, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I think 'Der Kremer mit den affen' is the correct title.
 * This book on GB gives a summary of the poem and points towards a source, but I can't quite work out who Niklas(?) Vogel was.
 * The most I can come up without excess effort is with is a handwritten copy (MS perhaps by Sachs himself?) of Dis mein dreyzehent puech mit Comed(ien) vnd spruechen - SG 13 Spruchgedichte, page 117r, [pdf 245], from 17 August 1558 to 16 August 1559. Click on the diagonal arrows (top right) for the left hand menu. Seems to last for about 4 pages. Ping me if you need vague help deciphering/translating. Best of luck. MinorProphet (talk) 05:11, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for digging that out. If you google for "Hans Sachs" and "Ein kramer sein kramerey trug", you'll find a print version on archive.org. It's a slightly different one from the handwritten document linked to above (there, the first line is "Ein kramer seinen Kramkorb trug"), but people will probably find it easier to read. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:17, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Ahh, this one, thank you. It's fairly hilarious. Dated 19th December 1558, still relevant. The opening of the MS version scans better: the metre reminds me of Hoffmansthal's "Sie trug den Becher in der Hand", but that's another story. MinorProphet (talk) 13:36, 3 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Here the fable is titled "Der kremer mit den affen" (note the lower-case "k"), and the first line is: "Ein kremer seinen kramkorb truͤeg,". In Modern German orthography, this becomes: "Ein Krämer seinen Kramkorb trug,". Unlike "kramerey", "kramkorb" fits the iambic tetrametre of the fable. --Lambiam 13:27, 3 December 2020 (UTC)