Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 December 28

= December 28 =

Princess Diana's interest in clairvoyance - Part 1
The British Royal Family has always had a close relationship  with the Church of England and Church of Scotland. The Queen, and her children were married in churches. have attended church services, and been supportive also of other religions.

Princess Diana shared these sentiments. although, she did also have an interest in clairvoyance. and often visited psychics, such as Rita Rodgers, Sally Morgan and Simone Simmons.

how did this interest in clairvoyance develop ? and are there any indications that since the reign of Queen Elizabeth II, other members of the British Royal Family, have had an interest in psychic or paranormal phenomena ? Gfigs (talk) 10:34, 28 December 2020 (UTC)


 * There's a story that Queen Victoria consulted a medium called Robert James Lees (1849-1931), although this is doubtful because at the date of his purported first séance, he would have only been 12 years-old. Lees was later involved in the hunt for Jack the Ripper.
 * Another unconfirmed story has the whole Royal Family holding a séance with a dodgy medium called Lilian Bailey in 1953.
 * Note that the monarch is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, which has traditionally taken a dim view of Spiritualism.
 * Alansplodge (talk) 12:11, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
 * thanks..while ago, I seen a photo of mirror of John Dee, in a museum in UK..Prince Charles is a member of "The Magic Circle". although, that probably has more to do with illusion.. Gfigs (talk) 12:33, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Prince Philip has, reportedly, a keen interest in flying saucers and extraterrestrials. --Lambiam 13:05, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
 * really..Freemasons such as Arthur Conan Doyle had an interest in spiritualism..there was a controversy over this..also thought about J.K.Rowling's and The Ghost Club Gfigs (talk) 13:57, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Meghan, Duchess of Sussex reportedly consulted a clairvoyant in her pre-royal days . --Antiquary (talk) 14:05, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
 * ah ha..hope they can be happy, in the US..Gfigs (talk) 14:15, 28 December 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if this qualifies as "paranormal", but the Royal Family is known for their advocacy of homeopathy (e.g:). 2603:6081:1C00:1187:DDE3:6CAA:B88F:3DD (talk) 18:28, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
 * not really, although the aim of Raupert's book The Dangers of Spiritualism - John Godfrey Raupert (1858-1929) was to prove that involvement in spiritualism could cause "health problems" and "accidents". what those who were religious, might have considered to be a Curse.Gfigs (talk) 04:12, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Heatherden Hall and the Anglo-Irish Treaty
Until I removed it yesterday our article Heatherden Hall contained a claim that the Anglo-Irish Treaty was signed there. I have seen similar claims elsewhere on the net, perhaps the most specific is the claim here that "The fireplace in what was now the Cocktail Bar, showed the following inscription: ‘In this room, on November 3, 1921, the ratification of the Irish Free State Treaty was settled by the Earl of Birkenhead, Viscount Long, Viscount Younger of Leckie, Sir Malcolm Fraser, Bart., and Lieut.-Colonel W. Grant Morden, J.P., M.P.’" Now as the Treaty was not signed until the 6th December, and ratification was a matter for the parliaments, clearly whatever happened on the 3rd November at Heatherden wasn't ratification in any sense. Also, all those listed were British Unionist (Conservative) politicians - no Irish and no Liberals amongst them - so obviously wasn't the signing of the Treaty. So - what did happen at Heatherden Hall on the 3rd November 1921? It would be nice too to have a citable source for where the Treaty was signed - I assume 10 Downing St. The copy deposited at the League of Nations simply says "at London". Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 17:51, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Grant-Morden held a shooting party at Heatherden Hall at the weekend 5/6 November but no mention I can find of anything to do with the treaty. The UK Prime Minister was still holding cabinet discussions in London the following weekend about the treaty. MilborneOne (talk) 18:25, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Something from The Lincolnshire Echo in 1933 - It says the plaque was to record that an agreement between Grant-Morden, Lord Birkenhead, Sir George Younger, Sir Malcom Fraser and Lord Long "came to an agreement that the Tory Party would support the Coalition Government's efforts to establish the Irish Free State Treaty". Not exactly the signing of the treaty then. MilborneOne (talk) 18:35, 28 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Not sure if a master's thesis is a Reliable Source, but Lord Birkenhead and the Irish question has plenty of detail about the negotiations, which were finally signed "At 2:10 a.m., on December 6, 1921" at "the Prime Minister's residence", i.e. No 10 Downing Street (pp. 220-221 or 228-229/272 of the pdf file). There's no mention of Heatherden Hall, but in early November, the British side were mired in arguments about Ulster (some things never change). Alansplodge (talk) 18:39, 28 December 2020 (UTC)


 * thanks, that's an interesting read. Peter Rowland says the Treaty was signed in the Cabinet Room at No. 10 so I've used him to add that to the Treaty article. DuncanHill (talk) 20:18, 28 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Are you able to send me the Lincs Echo story, with the date and page number? That sounds like something that we could use in the Heatherden Hall article. DuncanHill (talk) 00:36, 29 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Got the same story through British Newspaper Archive in the Gloucestershire Echo, 28 November 1933, p. 4, in a column by "Pall Mall" called "What They Tell Me", item headed "Political Memorial":
 * During a week-end visit to play squash rackets at the sports club at Heatherden Hall, in Bucks, I found in the library a commemorative plaque set over the fireplace. It stated that, as the guests of Col. Grant Morden, the former owner, Sir George Younger, Lord Birkenhead, Sir Malcolm Fraser, and Lord Long came to an agreement that the Tory Party would support the Coalition Government's efforts to establish the Irish Free State Treaty.
 * --Antiquary (talk) 14:00, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
 * DuncanHill its he same wording "Political Memorial" in the Lincolnshire Echo dated 28 November 1933 page 4 presumably picked up by a few local newspapers. MilborneOne (talk) 16:37, 31 December 2020 (UTC)


 * and thanks both - looks like a syndicated column, I think the various Echos were all Northcliffe titles. Will have a go at finding out a bit more and adding something to the Heatherden article, and the Treaty article, in a few days. My family has a rather nice antique folding table that came from the Walter Longs for an unpaid tailoring bill. DuncanHill (talk) 17:00, 31 December 2020 (UTC)