Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 December 4

= December 4 =

How did non-Christian peoples feel about being ruled by a Christian monarch?
How did non-Christian peoples feel about being ruled by a Christian monarch? Bosniaks being ruled by the Hapsburgs, for instance, or Chechens, Ingush, Azeris, and Central Asians being ruled by the Russian Tsars. Or Algerians being ruled by Napoleon III. Or Indians (especially Hindus, Muslims, and Sikhs) being ruled by various British monarchs, such as Queen Victoria. Or Muslim Eritreans, Somalis, and Libyans being ruled by the House of Savoy. Futurist110 (talk) 00:52, 4 December 2020 (UTC)


 * This is an enormous topic and probably too big for this page. Whole books have been written on Indian attitudes to the British alone, likewise the pre-colombian nations living in what is now USA,Canada, Mexico and Peru. Let us say there were wars, civil disobedience, revolutions etc besides long periods of suffering in silence. Spinney Hill (talk) 01:23, 4 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Did many of their objections involve the Christian faith of their colonizer monarch as opposed to other factors such as being colonized by foreign and sometimes/often hostile powers in the first place, though? Futurist110 (talk) 01:47, 4 December 2020 (UTC)


 * I suspect that practicing Jews in Castile and Aragon in 1492 resented being expelled by the Edict of Expulsion issued by the Catholic Kings more than these monarchs being of a Christian persuasion. Atheist Americans resent that their children are forced to recite daily that their nation is "under God", as well as that their coins and bills express trust in (what they view as) a superstition, so no monarch is needed for resentment of religious impositions. The question is too broad and vague to be answerable. Objections will generally arise out of infringements on what is seen as being one's natural rights – to be allowed to live a peaceful life and provide for one's family, while practicing one's religion. Such infringements by colonizing powers have often had economic motives, sometimes hidden under a religious pretense. But no broad, generally valid pronouncements are possible. --Lambiam 07:42, 4 December 2020 (UTC)


 * No one has been forced to say under God since a certain court case in the 40s to early 70s. I'm guessing the 40s, circa the wartime Pledge of Allegiance religious objector case. Unless the parents force them to which may still be possible at some or all ages under 18, don't know. Or peer pressure which is probably significant in very conservative areas I have no experience living in but in New York City and other multicultural areas hardly anyone would care. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 12:41, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
 * However, in 1943, the Court changed its course in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, where the majority reversed the Gobitis decision and held that “the Free Speech clause of the First Amendment prohibits public schools from forcing students to salute the American flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance.” This was before God was added by law (signed by a conservative president in the 50s.) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 12:56, 4 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Futurist110 (talk) 08:02, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Not always as negative as you might think; take for example the King Edward VII Jewish Memorial Drinking Fountain. Alansplodge (talk) 08:57, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Ask any Jew, Muslim, Hindu, etc, in the UK today. DOR (HK) (talk) 01:38, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
 * But they and/or their ancestors voluntarily came under British rule! Futurist110 (talk) 03:34, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Although not directly addressing the "Christian monarch" issue, attitudes towards assimilation and national identity by ethnic and religious minorities in the UK is at Future Identities: Changing identities in the UK – the next 10 years. Alansplodge (talk) 12:00, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Futurist, the OP says nothing about voluntary subjugation, does it? DOR (HK) (talk) 20:50, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Rasata, Ratahiry and Rasoaveromanana
Who was Prince Rasata (mentioned on the article Rasoherina) in terms of relation to Rasoherina, Radama II, and the royal line? Also whose the father(s) of the orphaned children of Rasoherina: Ratahiry and Rasoaveromanana? Were they Raharolahy's (Rasoherina's first husband) or illegitimate children of the Rasoherina? What are the lifespan of these three individuals? KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:20, 4 December 2020 (UTC)


 * (1) Re Rasata, he was the son of Raharola with his second wife. Ce Raharolahy, aussi appelé Raharolahy Roambinifololahy, fut marié en premières noces à la princess Rabodo---plus tard épouse du roi Radama II (1861-1863) et reine elle-même sous le nom de Rasoherina (1863-1868)—il épouse ensuite une nièce du roi Radama I (1810-1828), dont il eut un fils, le prince Rasata, qui fit figure d’héritier possible du trône en 1868. (translation: Raharolahy, who was also called Raharolahy Roambinifololahy, first married princess Rabodo (later the wife of King Radama II and queen herself under the name Rasoherina). He then married a niece of King Radama I and had a son, prince Rasata, who became a possible heir to the throne in 1868.) Source is JOUBERT, J.-L. Revue de Littérature Comparée; Paris Vol. 44, Iss. 4, (Oct 1, 1970): 572. Proquest preview link if you want to request it at WP:RX. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:00, 4 December 2020 (UTC)


 * (2) Re Ratahiry and his sister Rasoaveromanana, the sources I am seeing all say they were adopted by Rasoherina and Radama II, who had no children of their own. But I haven’t found a source that says if their biological parentage was known. Have a look at, also . 70.67.193.176 (talk) 18:22, 4 December 2020 (UTC)


 * (3) (and 2, and 1) Found another source that sheds more light, including some on the dates question. Généalogie de Rasoaveromanana, Revue maritime et coloniale, Volume 81. It gives Rasoaveromanana’s biological parents as prince Ratsimamanga (grandson of Radama I’s sister Ratsiadala) and princess Razafimanjaka (granddaughter of the younger sister of Queen Ranavalona I). Rasoaveromanana was 27 years old at the date of the book, 1883, and was the unmarried mother of three children: Édouard Andriansalama b. 1878, Marie Bakoly b. 1879 and André b. 1882. On the next page, it describes Rasata as grandson or greatgrandson of Andrianampoinimérina, the founder of the dynasty who had died in 1810. Rasata was old enough to be married in 1868, because he left his wife behind when he went into exile at Mahabou on the west coast, where he was still living at the date of the book, 1883. The source goes on to describe the parentage and descendants of more members of the dynasty. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:26, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Additional cases where immigrants from a particular country settling in extremely massive numbers near the borders of this country?
In this 2009 New York Times Immigration Explorer interactive map, it shows how there are huge concentrations of Mexican immigrants to the United States in California, Arizona, and Texas--all US states that border Mexico--and also how there are huge concentrations of Cuban immigrants to the United States in Florida, especially in southern Florida:

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/03/10/us/20090310-immigration-explorer.html?_r=

(I checked and an equivalent pattern does not appear to be visible for Canadian immigrants to the United States in recent decades. However, such a pattern did, in fact, exist for Canadian immigrants to the United States in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.)

Anyway, which additional examples/cases have there been where immigrants from a particular country settled in extremely massive numbers near the borders of this country? I mean settled in another country, but literally near the border of their home country. Futurist110 (talk) 07:09, 4 December 2020 (UTC)


 * While I know that most of the East Asian populations (specifically Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans) in the Russian Empire in 1897 (many, if not most, of whom I'm presuming were either immigrants themselves or the descendants of recent immigrants) settled near the borders of their home/ancestral countries, the total East Asian population in the Russian Empire in 1897 was not very large:


 * https://datatowel.in.ua/pop-composition/languages-census-1897


 * Thus, this probably shouldn't actually count for this. Futurist110 (talk) 07:15, 4 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Haitians then one of the island's dictators massacred anyone who couldn't say parsley with the Spanish rrrrr? And threw babies up catching them with bayonets. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 12:23, 4 December 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry; what? When exactly was this? Futurist110 (talk) 19:25, 4 December 2020 (UTC)


 * The 1937 Parsley massacre under Dominican dictator Rafael Trujillo. It was horrifying.  As ridiculous as it sounds, SMW has the basic details down.  Trujillo sent his soldiers into the border regions and the soldiers were instructed to make the locals identify a sprig of parsley.  If they said so with the correct accent they were spared, if they didn't the soldiers killed everyone in the settlement.  The soldiers carried out the orders with horrifying gleefulness, including reportedly playing catch with babies and bayonets.  As an anti-communist and friendly to US business interests, Trujillo was a US ally for a long time, but by the early 1960s he had outlived his usefulness, and his brutality and destabilizing influence across Latin America became a problem and the CIA took him out in 1961.  Trujillo's successor, Joaquín Balaguer, wasn't really much better, however.  It's a rather ugly history. -- Jayron 32 19:39, 4 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Holy shit! I got to go read about that! Sounds extremely tragic and horrifying! An absolute bloodbath and massacre! Futurist110 (talk) 21:12, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
 * While I don't disagree with the horrors of the massacre, our article claims with this source [//web.archive.org/web/20130125140004/http://therevealer.org/archives/16375] that the use of parsley/perejil as a shibboleth is probably a myth, as there is it doesn't seem to have come from survivors (or I assume perpetrators) of the massacre. This PBS story also says it's "unconfirmed" [//www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2017/10/07/555871670/80-years-on-dominicans-and-haitians-revisit-painful-memories-of-parsley-massacre]. Nil Einne (talk) 11:32, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
 * True, but it is still widely known as the "Parsley massacre", and apocryphal or not, the name bears explanation. -- Jayron 32 16:10, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
 * There are a number of other contemporary examples, with the large Palestinian populations in places like Lebanon, Jordan and Syria, and today's Syrian refugee populations in Lebanon, Turkey and Jordan. I've heard there's a similar phenomenon occurring around Venezuela as well. Many other examples in Africa, although they don't tend to get a lot of media attention. Xuxl (talk) 13:50, 4 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Interesting. Futurist110 (talk) 21:12, 4 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Refugees who flee their home country to save their lives, while keeping the (too often illusory) hope of being able to return in the foreseeable future, will often settle close to the border. If they migrate with an idea of building a better future for their children, they will be more inclined to move to whatever place they think offers the most promising opportunities. Once there is a sizable concentration anywhere, you get networking effects; if you have an uncle in Miami, you may seek your luck in Miami. --Lambiam 21:17, 4 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Makes sense. Futurist110 (talk) 03:34, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
 * There's large numbers of peoples of several nationalities in the Jungle, Calais trying to enter the UK irregularly. LongHairedFop (talk) 10:38, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
 * This isn't what the OP seems to be asking about though, as those are at the (sort of) French border with UK trying to enter the UK. For the OP's question, it would be either if these people settled in Folkestone, Dover or at least somewhere in Kent; or if it was UK migrants to France hanging out at Calais. I assume the OP is intended to exclude refugee camps too as these tend to form on the border, but these people tend to be allowed only limited interactions with the local populations although they can last a long time and so do tend to develop their own internal economies etc. Famous more recent examples would include the Nayapara refugee camp and Nayapara refugee camp in Cox's Bazar District, Bangladesh although the government is controversially trying to relocate them to Bhasan Char. And very recently Ethiopian and Eritrean refugees in Sudan are massively increasing in numbers, with some of those returning to camps where they lived or even were born, refugees from earlier crises [//www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/12/6/stories-of-separation-and-violence-as-more-ethiopians-reach-sudan] [//www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/now-i-have-nothing-tigray-conflict-has-changed-ethiopia-for-ever-say-refugees] [//www.france24.com/en/live-news/20201207-prayers-for-peace-at-ethiopian-refugee-church-in-sudan] [//www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/11/27/rather-come-die-ethiopians-return-sudan-camp-lived-decades-ago/] [//www.unhcr.org/news/stories/2020/11/5fc3dc604/unhcr-chief-calls-support-sudan-hosts-ethiopia-refugees.html]. And at least some of the Eritrean refugees likely came from refugees camps in Ethiopia/Tigray. Nil Einne (talk) 08:38, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
 * BTW, as I understand the OP's question, it would also need to be French people settling in Kent. Eritreans, Somalian, Syria, Iraqis, Afghans etc wouldn't count. That said, as an example of why this sort of thing is complicated, it's my understanding that there are quite a few Salvadoran Americans, Honduran Americans, History of Guatemalan migrants in the United States etc who also settle in Texas, California, Florida just like with Mexicans. (Not necessarily on border towns, but it doesn't sound like the OP was only referring to those.) Plenty of Chinese Americans settle in New York and California but while these are nominally borders, especially in the case of New York bordering with China only comes in a very roundabout fashion. Indeed direct flights between New York and China generally go the other way. The border stuff was more relevant in early days although even in the case of the California Gold Rush I don't think you can just say it's due to the border. (Also while these were some of the earliest Chinese to migrate to the US in significant numbers, racism and other factors meant many weren't able to establish families in the US.) There is the interesting case of Japanese in Hawaii which you could significantly attribute to geographical closeness/borders. Nil Einne (talk) 10:49, 7 December 2020 (UTC)