Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 February 21

= February 21 =

Which Gilded Age US politicians published autobiographies?
Which Gilded Age US politicians published autobiographies? I know that former US President Ulysses S. Grant published his memoirs shortly before his death in 1885, but these memoirs pertained to his military service rather than to his political career. Which US politicians during the Gilded Age ever actually published autobiographies about their political career? Futurist110 (talk) 00:51, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
 * List of autobiographies by presidents of the United States shows a few, as does Category:Political autobiographies, but there aren't that many shown. You might do better with a library catalog search. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:7AC0 (talk) 01:14, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I just checked and it looks like John Sherman published his autobiography in 1895 and James G. Blaine published his autobiography in 1882. Futurist110 (talk) 21:26, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Penny dip
What is a penny dip? I know that it is a small source of non-electric light, but nothing beyond that.

I first encountered the term in the play "Der Tag; or, The Tragic Man" by J. M. Barrie. The play opens with the following line: "A bare chamber lighted by a penny dip which casts shadows." You can see the text of the play here: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/39178

According to an article in The Georgia Eclectic Medical Journal, "the electric light outshines the penny-dip": https://books.google.ca/books?id=JX8BAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA206&lpg=PA206&dq=%22penny+dip%22+light&source=bl&ots=GhMryT9gcS&sig=ACfU3U3WxrZPt5_uFkhtOFhZzvkiSZRJnw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJz77e0OHnAhUuTt8KHULMAjEQ6AEwC3oECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22penny%20dip%22%20light&f=false

The Nautical Magazine and Naval Chronicle for 1866 says that "in a fog the lighthouse and a penny dip are nearly of equal value for light": https://books.google.ca/books?id=G_8HJLGkZaQC&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153&dq=%22penny+dip%22+light&source=bl&ots=DFRAG5e28r&sig=ACfU3U3oRI8CzIHgU2rx7bHtPyBGHXcfVg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJz77e0OHnAhUuTt8KHULMAjEQ6AEwD3oECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22penny%20dip%22%20light&f=false

The searching I've done online has suggested that the phrase "penny dip" also has other meanings, including possibly some kind of pastry, but I'm specifically interested in learning about its meaning as used in the texts I have mentioned above. I'd really appreciate any leads! Maybe someone could create a Wikipedia article for Penny dip once someone finds out what it is? Erpham (talk) 03:46, 21 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Maybe a tallow dip that costs a penny? AnonMoos (talk) 03:57, 21 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Yeah, pretty clearly some kind of dipped candle. AnonMoos probably has it exactly right. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:7AC0 (talk) 04:08, 21 February 2020 (UTC)


 * A 'ship' in rhyming slang. A fair attraction . And i think this is Joseph Grimaldi here explaining John Roby lines about a bad wigs. purchasers were allowed to dip in a sack for old wigs—a penny the dip.&mdash;eric 06:42, 21 February 2020 (UTC)


 * The now obsolete term "penny dip" can have several meanings, including a lottery-like draw and a bread bun dipped in gravy, but here it is a cheap candle. Webster's 1913 dictionary gives "a dipped candle" as a (colloquial) meaning of the noun dip. Here "penny-dip" and "penny candle" are used as synonyms. In Enid Blyton's story The Curious Candle (1947) a candle that supposedly cost only a penny is scolded for being a "penny candle". --Lambiam 06:55, February 21, 2020 (UTC)


 * The OED doesn't have "penny dip" but confirms Webster's entry for dip (n.). Two of the example phrases refer to a farthing dip. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 15:25, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
 * ''7. (Short for dip-candle n. at Compounds 1.) A candle made by repeatedly dipping a wick into melted tallow.
 * ''1815  W. H. Ireland Scribbleomania 15   Paper..brown sugar to fold, Tea, soap..dip or choice mould.
 * ''1829  F. Marryat Naval Officer I. viii. 231   A purser's dip—vulgo, a farthing candle.
 * ''c1865  Letheby in Circle of Sci. I. 93/2   Two sorts of candles are commonly met with in commerce—namely dips and moulds.
 * 1887  R. L. Stevenson Underwoods i. xxx. 63   I am a kind of farthing dip Unfriendly to the nose and eyes.


 * In all cases a penny dip is a dip that cost(s) a penny, for various meanings of "dip". You can also have a "ha'penny dip" for various meanings of "dip".  --Lambiam 15:44, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm certain that a candle is correct, but further meanings here; a slice of bread dipped in gravy or a small assortment of boiled sweets (hard candy). Alansplodge (talk) 18:05, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm certain candle is correct also, just thought the wig thing was worth a mention. Sorry all for not being clear.&mdash;eric 21:12, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks everyone! That's very helpful. Erpham (talk) 01:10, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

How to respectfully connect with a religious person
I am an atheist, but I highly respect people who fully live the charity commanded by their religion. One such person is H, a woman who lost both her husband and her daughter, but has maintained a splendid attitude throughout her life, and particularly now so, while she is plagued by the ailments of old age. On the occasion of the death of a person we both love, the talk naturally moved to her Christian belief that there is a better life to come, and she said “I can't understand how people who don't believe that can keep up their spirit. ... How can one not see that the Bible is really special, with all the prophecies from the Old Testament being fulfilled in the New Testament?” We then got interrupted, which gives me the opportunity to ask others. Many people would just have retreated to a “Let's agree to disagree” position, but that would not respect her serious desire to understand me. In all the years, she has not once, like so many other true believers do, tried to proselytize me. Likewise, I by no means want to convince her of any of my positions; I just want to answer her questions. I don't take anything in the Bible at face value since it's tempting for people who grew up with the OT to piece by piece write a NT that matches its prophecies. But how can one say that to a believer without questioning her beliefs? Throwaway20191211 (talk) 12:19, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
 * So, how do you "keep up your spirit"? If you can put that into words, then you can start to answer her questions. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:38, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Good question. My intuitive answer would be that I believe in Love, in the sense that I appreciate it in others and try to spread it. (BTW, it's also a similar feeling that motivates me to contribute to WP with my main account.) It simply feels right and good in the here and now. For that, I don't need any commandment, nor the belief that Love overpowers everything. I might answer her along those lines; I'll think about it some more. Throwaway20191211 (talk) 12:50, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Oddly enough, there is this: "So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love." Theological_virtues ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:38, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
 * That sounds very much like her; she lives accordingly. I think she is asking because she can't fathom how one could just have one of those three. Throwaway20191211 (talk) 21:21, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Do you have hope for the future? Do you have faith in anyone or anything? I'm asking because it might be useful to find common ground instead of differences. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:11, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Wonderful questions! I think that's exactly what she wants to know. And yes, we're looking for common ground. Again I'll have to think deeper about your questions, but here's what I would answer off the top of my head: I certainly have less hope in general than she has. It's not that I feel hopeless, though. I just have less need to cling to hope. With faith outside of religion, we may be pretty even. One thing I think we share is that we don't label a situation as good or bad as quickly as most others. For her, it's because her faith is true faith, not just conviction, as for so many others. For me, it's because I see a new situation as a challenges to make something interesting out of it. (Unfortunately, though, I'm too playful to make something lucrative out of it, as some others do. I rather spend the time e.g. on Wikipedia.) Throwaway20191211 (talk) 08:15, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * From the way you phrase her questions, I get the impression that her amazement concerns non-believers in general, and that you (in her eyes) represent the whole class, so that in a way her questions are not really personal but directed at an accessible informant. Personally I'd wait until she brings it up again. I think that either the Creator or Mother Nature has endowed us with a zest for life, our natural condition until bad conditions grind us down – where the worst part may be us realizing, in many situations, that these conditions were created and are maintained by fellow human beings. --Lambiam 17:17, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think your impression is correct. That it's not just about me is part of my motivation to give her a good answer. It's actually already the second time this comes up, although the first time was less deep; the death of a beloved person added depth. Since one never knows when it's too late for an old person, I'd rather not wait for another occasion. Throwaway20191211 (talk) 21:21, 21 February 2020 (UTC)


 * I've found Christians typically like to have their beliefs questioned, just not doubted or mocked. Come at her as an eager student with a genuine interest in figuring out the verses you find fishy, not to prove your hunch but to let her talk. Maybe politely inquire on her favourite Psalm or gospel author and how she became a fan, why the words hold up today, that sort of thing. If you find her reasoning daft, just nod along, but if something she says actually rings true, tell her so out loud. Not a literal "Amen!", but something to that effect. You may not learn to love Jesus Christ, especially the first time, but you'll have a spiritual connection with one of his supposed elderly and wise children. Can't come close reading the Bible alone in your head, especially online, especially a wonky '90s translation. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:13, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * To clarify, when the overlying question is "Why don't more people agree x is the best?", the respectful answer is always some form of "Yeah, tell me about it, eh?" InedibleHulk (talk) 04:39, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * This is not so much about her trying to tell me something. No, she is really empathetic and curious and wants to find out about me (or others like me, as Lambiam conjectured.) That is also a facet of her being such a wonderful person. — But I find it particularly interesting that you draw the line between question and doubt. That never occurred to me. Or is your distinction that the by the former you mean something that invites a respectful conversation, and by the latter just making a judgment statement? Then I'm completely with you. Throwaway20191211 (talk) 08:15, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Doubt is questioning something while actively not believing it's real. Questioning requires we doubt our own preconceptions while accepting how it's real to another. Go in like a blank slate, not with debate notes; between you and me, you're probably right to lack faith in the good book (for hundreds of fine reasons), but adversarial discourse tends to remind a fair few Christians of Satan playing around with God, right out of the gate, even if you're just replying for all atheists. She doesn't care about their hypothetical logical consensus rebuttal, it's a rhetorical question she succeeded in telling you, personally. Now you ask her a real one about a part you truly don't understand, not one you're easily skeptical of (like walking on water). She can tell a lot about people by the questions they ask, I'd reckon. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:04, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

1. It's not clear whether she even knows you're atheist. There's no actual conflict between you and this person in the situation as you've written it. It's a mistake to interpret this scenario through any lens of belief, and furthermore I'm going to take the wild but probably-correct assumption that you carry this lens of belief into your relationships with other people and this approach then harms your friendships. 2: Support this person as you would anyone in grief, which is a combination of being a good listener and whatever your good judgement deems. 3: I think the deeper question you're actually asking is "How do I interact kindly with people of different beliefs?" and I think that question could be answered in philosophy books, therapists' offices, and advice columns. Temerarius (talk) 05:16, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * 1. Sorry for not making that clear: Yes, she already knows for years that I'm an atheist. That's part of why we're beyond the “Agree to disagree” stage. 2. Of course, that's a given. But I should mention that the deceased person was actually closer to me than to her. 3. Your rephrasing of my question misses the point in two dimensions – width and depth: Width: I have no problem interacting kindly with people of different beliefs. I've lived in different cultures and am familiar with ways to mitigate the differences. (BTW, that is also something where Wikipedia helped me a lot with its requirement to internalize WP:AGF.) Depth: H is a special person I particularly respect, and I'm looking for a way to connect with her deeper, beyond just a kind interaction, in that one area that matters so much to her. Throwaway20191211 (talk) 08:15, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

There's a series of cornball mystery novels starting with Friday the Rabbi Slept Late which feature an ongoing dialogue between a rabbi and an RCC parishioner (I first remembered that character as being a priest, but per the article he is a lay police chief), comparing belief systems etc. The novels are really mostly a vehicle for stuff about religious culture and pop theology. You and your friend might like them if you are into that sort of thing. 2601:648:8202:96B0:C8B1:B369:A439:9657 (talk) 06:22, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the recommendation. There is something similar I like: Nathan the Wise. I think I'll mention that to her. Throwaway20191211 (talk) 08:15, 22 February 2020 (UTC)