Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 July 4

= July 4 =

The Third of May 1808's black margin on the left edge
Does anyone know if the black line on the left edge of Francisco Goya's The Third of May 1808, as could be seen, is part of the painting itself or part of the frame? StellarHalo (talk) 10:40, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I think it's just the way that the photograph has been cropped: the image on the Museo del Prado's website, seen on this page, doesn't show it even on an X-ray. Alansplodge (talk) 15:18, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

George Herbert, Rotherham MP
I would like to know more about George Herbert, sometime MP for Rotherham. I know he wrote a book Can Land Settlement Solve Unemployment? after leaving Parliament (I have a copy). Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 13:54, 4 July 2020 (UTC)


 * "In Rotherham the little known Tory candidate George Herbert overturned a 1929 Labour majority of 16,836", from: The biggest landslide ever: the general election of 1931.
 * Also WorldCat lists three other books that were published under his name between 1924 and 1930.
 * As I 'spect you found out, there are an awful lot of George Herberts and George Herbert Whatnots out there. Alansplodge (talk) 15:46, 4 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Hordes of 'em! I did find this and this which have him involved in the Seventh Day Adventists in York in the mid-50's. In my second link he mentions being the last occupier of the estate on which the new church was built. That estate would be, as far as I can see, that of Heworth Hall. He was an MBE by 1935, when his land settlement book was published, and from the Adventist papers he was a major, tho' of what I do not know. DuncanHill (talk) 18:20, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Green ribbon in the history of Mental illness
The Green ribbon page claims green was the color used to label people "insane" in the 1800s. I am unable to find any historical sources or even any sources before the 21st century. Most sources are websites using the same phrases, without references, usually charities. I think this may be a bit of an urban myth. If anyone can help find the origin of the green ribbon being chosen for mental illness that would be very helpful. If people really were labeled green in the 1800s, then in which countries was this and how solid are the sources? So far I have searched books with "history" or "mental" in the title, websites and need articles without success. Thank you for reading Amousey (they/them pronouns) (talk) 19:35, 4 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Later in the same century, a green carnation in one's button hole became a way for gay men to recognise each other. And of course they were considered not only criminal by the law but insane by society at large. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  19:41, 4 July 2020 (UTC)


 * This is a tough question to research. Most sources that associate the green ribbon with mental health awareness are current press releases and the like, that just flatly claim that a green ribbon is the "international symbol" for mental health. Or similar claims. The few of those sources that mention the 19th century, again, are current press release-like sources that just make the claim without any references or background information.According to a book chapter, the association of the green ribbon with mental health is primarily a North American invention, and came to the UK in about 2012. K. Coyle et al., "See Change: The National Mental Health Stigma Reduction Partnership in Ireland", in The Stigma of Mental Illness - End of the Story? 371–74 (W. Gaebel et al. eds. 2017). However, an article in Rand Health Quarterly discussing a 2014 awareness campaign in California describes the green ribbon as being a late addition to the campaign, suggesting the strength of association wasn't terribly strong or current until the 2010s. See .Searching for information about the association of the color green with mental health (or ill mental health) is difficult. Excluding false positives from search results doesn't seem possible. Checking the Oxford English Dictionary is mildly informative: One sense of the word "green" is associated with green sickness (hypochromic anemia), while another obsolete sense may refer to recent recovery from disease or recent burial (as in "green in earth"). I personally favor the association with "green sickness", which in the 19th century seems to have been considered a "hysterical" disorder (i.e., a mental health disorder). But I have no particular sources to back that up, just my gut instinct. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 21:40, 4 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Amousey, you can use ngram to search the appearances of a phrase in different time periods. Trying that backs up 199.66.69.67’s conclusions in two ways:
 * (1) Modern sources from before the 2010s link green ribbons to various other causes but not mental health especially, though the 2007 source does mention “childhood depression”: this book from 2005 says “awareness of tissue and organ donors, sufferers of ovarian cancer, or Tourette’s syndrome” and this blog from 2007 claims “childhood depression, missing children, open records for adoptees, environmental concerns, kidney cancer, tissue/organ donation, homeopathy, and worker and driving safety”. If this really was an old and well-known association, it is surprising that the 2005 book on Ribbon Culture doesn’t mention it.
 * (2) And meanwhile, older sources have quite different associations: such as death in the 14th century,  politics in the 1680s (see Green Ribbon Club),  Irish heritage in 1869 and  1905,  third place in a prize-giving in 1940. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:28, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Green ribbon, red ribbon, silver...tray? Of all the crazy systems to not survive the war, this was surely the craziest. Not the worst, mind you! InedibleHulk (talk) 08:53, 7 July 2020 (UTC)