Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 June 16

= June 16 =

Thomas Babington Macaulay
There is a lot in the news about Macaulay saying that he said very racist stuff about India, and other people saying it is not true, or partly not true. At least some are saying that quotes are fabrications or out of context in a way to mislead. I can't be sure if any of this is in the article, but I can tell that none of the pushback(claims of misquoting, fabrication etc) isn't discussed. Here's some of the pushback: On The Wire, The Infamous Macauley Speech that Never Was. Also, an essay by someone claiming to be Indian was on the web last night claiming that almost All of the purported attacks on Indians by Macauley are forgeries. But I can't find it today. (But that doesn't prove the essay wasn't genuine.) A major question I have is, is the wikipedia article accurate right now,or does it incorporate fabricated or distorted quotes of Macaulay? 144.35.45.54 (talk) 00:05, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Here is a link to the article on The Wire: . It is dated 19/Feb/2017. --Lambiam 06:13, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Lord Ninian Crichton-Stuart and Fife County Council
Our article about Lord Ninian Crichton-Stuart reords that he served on Fife County Council - but during what dates? I think he was still a councillor (as well as MP for Cardiff) at his death in action. --rossb (talk) 05:58, 16 June 2020 (UTC)


 * The best I can do is: "After taking up his permanent residence at House of Falkland, Lord Ninian was elected a member of the County Council of Fife..." from Falkland 1900-2000 
 * That would be after his service with the "1st Battalion Scots Guards, in which regiment he served for over two years, leaving it after his marriage in order to devote himself to the management of his estates, and to politics" - his marriage was on 16th June 1906. The same article relates that his son was born at Falkland in 1913 and that he returned there on leave from the front (presumably in 1915) so it seems that Falkland continued to be a family home, or at least one of them. Alansplodge (talk) 14:24, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Can some one help in verification of refs
Hi,

I don't know if it is ok to request such help here.

I am looking for if some one can proactively help out in long pending verification of refs of two edits:  &  and updating @ Talk:Islamic_feminism.

I have checked for 17 out of 19 still two significant are remaining. And now feeling bit weary -also have other focus areas to work on- but still wish task gets completed, so decision making about content and article's other related tasks can breathe with little more ease.

(More details are mentioned in earlier section of the talk page

Thanks and regards

Bookku (talk) 10:03, 16 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Hi Bookku, the two diffs you linked both seem to already contain references. Can you specify which statements you need references for? We definitely can help to find references here; I'm just not sure what to look for in this case. Thank you for clarifying, 70.67.193.176 (talk) 19:40, 16 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Bookku said "verification of refs". Presumably this means confirming that the referenced sources actually say what the article says they say. --76.71.5.208 (talk) 22:23, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

In that case, here is the check for diff 2942. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 14:35, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * During the early reforms under Islam in the 7th century, reforms in women's rights affected marriage, divorce and inheritance. (Current ref number: 14)
 * TEXT IS NOW REFERENCED TO A DIFFERENT SOURCE THAN THE ONE IN THE DIFF. Does that mean you don’t need it verified any more?
 * Women were not accorded with such legal status in other cultures, including the West, until centuries later.
 * SENTENCE NO LONGER THERE
 * The Oxford Dictionary of Islam states that the general improvement of the status of Arab women included prohibition of female infanticide and recognizing women's full personhood. (Current ref number: 15)
 * TEXT NOW SAYS The Oxford Dictionary of Islam argues for a general improvement of the status of women in Arab societies, including the prohibition of female infanticide, though some historians believe that infanticide was practiced both before and after Islam. AND IS NOW REFERENCED TO A DIFFERENT SOURCE THAN THE ONE IN THE DIFF. Does that mean you don’t need it verified any more?
 * "The dowry, previously regarded as a bride-price paid to the father, became a nuptial gift retained by the wife as part of her personal property." (see also Dower). (Current ref numbers: [18][full citation needed][19][full citation needed])
 * SOURCE ONE: Khadduri, Majid. Socialist Iraq: A Study in Iraqi Politics since 1968. Washington: Middle East Institute, 1978. Print. BOOK ONLINE ONLY IN SNIPPET VIEW . YOU COULD REQUEST IT AT WP:RX.
 * SOURCE TWO: Esposito, John L. Islam: The Straight Path. New York: Oxford UP, 1998. Print. BOOK ONLINE BUT WITHOUT PREVIEW . YOU COULD REQUEST IT AT WP:RX.
 * Under Islamic law, marriage was no longer viewed as a "status" but rather as a "contract", in which the woman's consent was imperative.  (Current ref numbers: [17][18][full citation needed][19][full citation needed][20][full citation needed])
 * SOURCE ONE: "Sahih al-Bukhari » Book of Wedlock, Marriage (Nikaah)". Archived from the original on 2018-08-04. Retrieved 2018-08-02. SOURCE IS A VERSE OF THE Sahih al-Bukhari which reads (per the source) Narrated `Aisha: I said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! A virgin feels shy." He said, "Her consent is (expressed by) her silence." 
 * SOURCE TWO: SEE NOTE RE KHADDURI SOURCE ABOVE
 * SOURCES THREE AND FOUR: SEE NOTE RE ESPOSITO SOURCE ABOVE
 * "Women were given inheritance rights in a patriarchal society that had previously restricted inheritance to male relatives."
 * SENTENCE NO LONGER THERE
 * Annemarie Schimmel states that "compared to the pre-Islamic position of women, Islamic legislation meant an enormous progress; the woman has the right, at least according to the letter of the law, to administer the wealth she has brought into the family or has earned by her own work."
 * SENTENCE NO LONGER THERE
 * William Montgomery Watt states that Muhammad, in the historical context of his time, can be seen as a figure who testified on behalf of women’s rights and improved things considerably. Watt explains: "At the time Islam began, the conditions of women were terrible - they had no right to own property, were supposed to be the property of the man, and if the man died everything went to his sons." Muhammad, however, by "instituting rights of property ownership, inheritance, education and divorce, gave women certain basic safeguards." (Current ref number: [21][full citation needed])
 * SOURCE: Watt, W. Montgomery. Islamic Creeds: A Selection. Edinburgh: Edinburgh UP, 1994. Print. ONLINE ONLY IN SNIPPET VIEW. YOU COULD REQUEST IT AT WP:RX.
 * Haddad and Esposito state that "Muhammad granted women rights and privileges in the sphere of family life, marriage, education, and economic endeavors, rights that help improve women's status in society." (Current ref number: [19][full citation needed])
 * Esposito, John L. Islam: The Straight Path. New York: Oxford UP, 1998. Print SEE NOTE RE ESPOSITO SOURCE ABOVE
 * In terms of women's rights, women generally had fewer legal restrictions under Islamic law than they did under certain Western legal systems until the 20th century. For example, restrictions on the legal capacity of married women under French law were not removed until 1965.
 * SENTENCE NO LONGER THERE