Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 June 9

= June 9 =

Cut compound time
There is a musical notation conundrum that I am pretty sure I have asked before here: if you have a piece that could be thought of in 4/4, but actually you want the half notes to get the beat, you write 2/2. So, if you have a piece that could be thought of in 12/8, but actually you want the dotted half notes to get the beat, what can you write? 6/4 implies that the dotted halves are split into threes, not into the twos that you want. And 3/2 is even worse.

The one example I can think of right now is Schubert's Geisternähe, D 100 (score). That also is a rather ugly solution (with all respect to Schubert, of course), because Schubert manages it by writing 2/2 and dealing with the fact that the meter is really 12/8 by writing lots and lots of triplets everywhere. So, is there some standard way to do this, beyond the most obvious one of writing 12/8 and adding a parenthetical tempo marking "(in two)"? Double sharp (talk) 06:29, 9 June 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm not a practising musician, but I wonder, how would be interpreted?  --Lambiam 09:45, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that does seem like the clearest option without explanatory notes; at least, I would interpret it to mean exactly what I wanted. Thank you! Double sharp (talk) 11:12, 9 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Most pieces I've played or sung notated in 12/8 naturally have 4 pulses per measure, the equivalent of writing in 4/4 using triplets on every beat. If the tempo is fast enough that you want only two pulses per measure (on dotted half notes, as you mention), I believe it would still be notated in 12/8 with two strong beats per measure in the accompaniment. --Thomprod (talk) 11:47, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Alfred Rawlinson middle name?
In our article, Sir Alfred Rawlinson, 3rd Baronet, someone has amended the lead to show his name as "Sir Toby Alfred Rawlinson, 3rd Baronet". As far as I can tell, "Toby" was a family and army nickname rather than his actual name. Question: a) was Toby or Tobias actually part of his name? b) If not, what is the standard Wikipedia procedure for including a nickname in the lead paragraph? Alansplodge (talk) 15:29, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Not suggesting it's Wikidoctrine, but both within and beyond Wikipedia, by far the usual practice I have encountered is to include the nickname within double quotes between the last formal forename and the surname, thus: Sir Alfred "Toby" Rawlinson, or Erno Matti Juhani "Emppu" Vuorinen. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.125.72.102 (talk) 17:24, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You're correct, per MOS:NICKNAME. I took the liberty of editing accordingly. 107.15.157.44 (talk) 19:20, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Here is a reference for Toby being a family nickname (and not actually part of his name): A memoir of Major-General Sir Henry Creswicke Rawlinson, by George Rawlinson, London: Longmans, Green and Co, 1898, page 291 Sir Henry had married, in 1862, Louisa (the youngest daughter of Mr. Seymour of Knoyle, Wiltshire), whose brothers, Henry Danby and Alfred, were respectively members for Poole and for Totnes. The marriage was in every way a happy one. Two sons were the fruit of the union — Henry Seymour, commonly known as ' Harry,' or Sennacherib, born in 1864, and Alfred, born in 1867, called in his family and by his intimates ' Toby.'  70.67.193.176 (talk) 19:02, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you all. He's one of my favourite historical characters; cavalryman, Olympic gold medalist, pilot, racing driver and sports car entrepreneur; in the First World War a volunteer chauffeur cum one-man motorised reconnaissance unit, somehow promoted from civilian to colonel overnight with friends who are corporals and French generals. When the army finds out he's been appointed in error they chuck him out, so he goes the same day to the navy who on the spot make him a lieutenant-commander and put him in charge of an armoured car squadron and then they let him create a mobile anti-aircraft brigade. When he gets bored with that, he goes off to be a spy in Turkey and when he's finally released from a Turkish prison years after the war, he marries a flighty actress. You couldn't make it up. Alansplodge (talk) 13:14, 10 June 2020 (UTC)