Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 May 19

= May 19 =

Sea level
When indicating height/elevation, why above sea level is used instead of more sensible ground (land) level? The majority of places don't have a nearby sea and are located on dry land. Thanks. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 08:19, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Sea level is obviously a simple global standard from which to measure the height of any point on earth. Other measures are only of use locally. Another term sometimes used is Topographic prominence, "the height of a mountain or hill's summit relative to the lowest contour line encircling it but containing no higher summit within it". Reading that definition might show you how tricky it is to be precise with this stuff. A simple example of both terms in use is in Mount Wycheproof, a not very big mountain in my country. HiLo48 (talk) 09:02, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Except that sea level is not a global standard. In general, each country sets their own standard. See vertical datum. It is usual to give the heights of buildings, trees, etc above ground level, but for the height of the ground itself you need a more general datum.--Shantavira|feed me 09:09, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * But what level of ground would you measure from? It varies all over the place - that's the whole reason we measure elevation. Water at least finds a level (subject to minor caveats about the shape of the geoid etc etc). Beorhtwulf (talk) 09:29, 19 May 2020 (UTC)


 * While this is the common expression, a more accurate one would be "above the geoid", which is a virtual surface surrounding Earth formed by a set of points that have the same effective potential. The value of the specific effective potential defining the geoid coincides with the mean sea level in locations in the oceans. So if you construct a road at a constant (moderate) height above the geoid, the down direction is everywhere perpendicular to the road surface. The mean sea level is not easily determined (see Sea level, §Difficulties in use). However, these problems are peanuts compared to those you will encounter when trying to define a reference "land level" with respect to which heights can be given. What is the land level for locations on the Roof of the World? Is it the same for the Tibetan Plateau and the Altai Mountains? And what will determine the zero level for the American Bottom? --Lambiam 09:50, 19 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Note our article Height above ground level for applications where that is more useful. I've tattooed "1.3m AGL" on my wrist and use it as a hiking altimeter!  -- ToE 14:44, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Anti-aircraft machine guns on tanks
I was wondering how often the anti-aircraft guns on the roofs of tanks in the second world war were used and if they were effective. I've been trying to find anything that even relates to this topic but I haven't been able to find anything. Der.tieg11 (talk) 08:34, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Most tanks don't have anti-aircraft guns on their turrets except for dedicated anti-aircraft tanks such as the 2_cm_Flak_30/38/Flakvierling. Sleigh (talk) 09:05, 19 May 2020 (UTC)


 * .50 caliber M2 Brownings were mounted on US M4 Sherman tanks during the war for anti-aircraft defence. Firing The .50 Cal From a Sherman Tank: How Often Was This Actually Done? discusses the usefulness and limitations. It was generally not adopted by other nations. Alansplodge (talk) 11:25, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * "Above the commander's hatch was a .50 cal. Browning heavy barrel machine gun. This was intended for anti-aircraft protection, but in fact it was much more often used for self-defense of the tank and for attacking ground targets..." US Army Tank Crewman 1941–45: European Theater of Operations (ETO) 1944–45 by Steven J. Zaloga (p. 20). Alansplodge (talk) 11:45, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Hot pursuit across US state borders
It is a trope in depictions of car chases in the USA, and I think I've also seen it in reports of real pursuits, that fleeing suspects will attempt to cross state lines to evade capture by state-based law enforcement. Our article on hot pursuit doesn't cover this, which seems like an unfortunate omission, but the U.S. state article says "The principle of hot pursuit of a presumed felon and arrest by the law officers of one state in another state are often permitted by a state."

Does "often" imply this varies across the country, and does it come down to bilateral agreements between each individual pair of bordering states, or are there some general principles that apply? Does "felon" mean that for something like a minor traffic violation a person could genuinely escape and not be pursued?

Are there also circumstances in which a suspect who would have been dealt with purely at the state level puts themselves under the jurisdiction of federal law enforcement and courts by effectively smearing their criminal act across multiple states? Beorhtwulf (talk) 09:27, 19 May 2020 (UTC)


 * To complicate the issue, some acts that are a felony in one US state may not be a crime at all in a neighboring state. --Lambiam 10:05, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Kidnapping is a felony. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:41, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * How do you know? Are you a lawyer?--WaltCip (talk) 14:53, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Read Kidnapping. It's a federal crime. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:28, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but more pertinent here is the Mann Act. 93.136.148.29 (talk) 15:29, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * See this Findlaw.com article. (As always, a reminder that we cannot offer legal advice.)--WaltCip (talk) 14:36, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * That's about extradition between states, which I would consider to be distinct from hot pursuit. Extradition is what state A would seek if they were unable to pursue the suspect and apprehend them in state B. And I'm definitely not asking for legal advice! Beorhtwulf (talk) 15:14, 19 May 2020 (UTC)... pedal to the metal, police and news helicopters in tow, headed for the state line


 * You're forgetting that police from different states often cooperate with each other. If someone is speeding and flies across the state border, there's a reasonable chance there will be cops waiting for them. Also, it is or was at least rumored to be the case in states bordering Wisconsin, which had more liberal fireworks laws than its bordering states, the Wisconsin state police would note the license numbers of out-of-state cars at the fireworks stores, and report them to the other states' police forces - again, so they could be waiting for the buyers once they got back to their home states. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:32, 19 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Some of what I've seen on TV (the shows they make out of police dashcam footage) involves suspects fleeing to state lines and the police in pursuit arranging for their counterparts over the border to be ready to take over. What I can't remember seeing is how it works when this isn't available, whether they just have to give up, or carry on over the border out of their own state.
 * Since it may differ between states, it would be interesting to hear from Wikipedians who live in metropolitan areas where a border is nearby, as those would be expected to have high numbers of suspects attempting to cross. Kansas City, El Paso and Chicago are the ones that come to mind. Beorhtwulf (talk) 18:01, 19 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Fresh pursuit merely redirects to Hot pursuit, but i think there is a distinction (see fn 4). The WP article does not expand much, but you can find many references by searching for . fiveby(zero) 18:15, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The linked article is from way back in '88 but has an "Interstate Fresh Pursuit" section with: "A state has no inherent authority to extend its police powers or its criminal jurisdiction into another state...permitted to arrest...only if that authority exists at common law or has been granted to them by enactment by the host state of the Uniform Act on Fresh Pursuit...In virtually all states, the Uniform Act authorizes...'"Not sure what distinguishes the authority at common law and why the Uniform Act was necessary, think it may have something to do with "fresh" vs. "instant" pursuit or an office having a reasonable belief the suspect committed a crime vs. actually witnessing a crime.fiveby(zero) 19:55, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Sea Level II
One of the questions above has provoked the following question to be asked in association. How does the change in sea level with the tides impact the measurement of “…meters above sea level”. Thanks 86.186.232.80 (talk) 09:53, 19 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The tides do not impact it. "Sea level" in this context means " mean sea level", averaging actual heights over a couple of years. The gradual sea level rise observed over the last century does have an impact. --Lambiam 10:11, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * See Mean sea level. HiLo48 (talk) 10:13, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note that sea charts do it differently: depths are usually shown as the depth at lowest tide (so the mariner knows there will always be at least that much water there), while clearance under bridges etc is shown relative to highest tide. Iapetus (talk) 10:42, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

"Harvard outline" format
The article on Jacob Neusner refers to something being written in "Harvard outline" format. What is this? Amisom (talk) 16:49, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * From what I'm seeing online, "Harvard outline" basically seems to be another term for an alphanumeric outline. Deor (talk) 18:04, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

English-speaking Hitler
Besides German, did Adolf Hitler speak English? 86.128.234.92 (talk) 19:31, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * According to this (German) article Hitler regularly read English and French magazines and also watched films in these languages, but was not fluent in them. - Lindert (talk) 20:33, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

And according to the first episode of The Winds of War, Hitler, the US ambassdor and his wife spoke to each other in German instead of English. (39:52-40:29) 86.128.234.92 (talk) 21:33, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but even good drama is not the place to look. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:28, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Perhaps referring to William Dodd (ambassador) who spoke fluent German and had studied at the University of Leipzig in 1900. Alansplodge (talk) 10:49, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * An intriguing legend is that in 1912, Hitler "came to stay at the house of his half brother and his wife in Upper Stanhope Street, in Toxteth, Liverpool. There he stayed for around six months before returning to the men's hostel in Vienna. As the only source for this is Bridget's own memoir, it has inevitably undergone thorough analysis..." BBC Legacies - Adolf Hitler - did he visit Liverpool during 1912-13?. Our article on Bridget Hitler dismisses the story as fabrication, but der Führer making a speech with a Scouse accent is a wonderful mental image. Alansplodge (talk) 10:22, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * From an obituary to Deborah Cavendish, Duchess of Devonshire, The Last Mitford: "Unity, the third sister, notoriously became obsessed with Nazism and fell in love with Adolf Hitler. Debo had tea with him once but it was all conducted in German and she says that he 'didn't make a great impression'."
 * Another article about Deborah Cavendish, now partly concealed behind a paywall (but reported here), quotes her as saying about that meeting; "The atmosphere was rather awkward because neither my mother nor I could speak German". Alansplodge (talk) 10:40, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Just pointing out that "did" and "could" are not synonyms. That the conversations in question did not happen in English doesn't mean they could not.  -- Jayron 32 12:56, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * True, but its a bit of a clue. Alansplodge (talk) 14:49, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * And conversely, although Debo and her mother could not speak German, it doesn't mean they did not. --Lambiam 17:25, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

So Hitler didn't speak English at all? Only German? 86.128.234.92 (talk) 20:58, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It might depend on what you mean by "speak English". Like many people, probably including Hitler, I can say a few words in French, Italian, German, Spanish, Portuguese etc. I got by in France (because I still remembered some of my school French), but as for the others, which I've never formally studied, my few words hardly qualifies me to say that I can "speak" those languages. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  00:48, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It's also worth noting that, even if Hitler could have spoken English, it is likely that beyond a certain point in history he would not have spoken in English. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 01:55, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

literary device
This is a made-up example:
 * Johnson read the piece of paper again, swore, crumpled it up and threw it angrily into the wastebasket. He put on his overcoat and headed out the door, calculating how long it would take him to get to the Ministry.

The idea is that the paper says something important but the reader is not told what it is, The reveal is in the next chapter or whatever. It seems like a pretty cheap device.

What is it called? Is it used in much in skillful writing? The thing I'm reading right now uses it, but it's not very skillful so it doesn't count. Thanks. 2601:648:8202:96B0:3567:50D5:8BFF:4588 (talk) 21:02, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * A portentous form of foreshadowing? 107.15.157.44 (talk) 23:47, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I thought of that but it's much less subtle. It's downright annoying in fact.  Less like a shadow and more like a pie in the face. 2601:648:8202:96B0:3567:50D5:8BFF:4588 (talk) 23:59, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Hackneyed writing. Maybe a cousin to It was a dark and stormy night. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:19, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I think the general opinion of Agatha Christie's writing is that she may have been weak on characterization, but she did a good job of constructing her mysteries. In one of the early books that made her reputation, at one point the narrator says something like "I did what I had to do and then left" and in fact this is concealing the book's famous twist ending. --76.71.5.208 (talk) 01:51, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I think "I did what little had to be done" is the exact line. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 08:02, 20 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Maybe a form of Macguffin? -- Jayron 32 12:53, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * If the actual content of the discarded paper is important for the plot, it is not a MacGuffin. --Lambiam 16:42, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Sort of. The characters behave as though the content is important, so it motivates their actions; that motivation is a key plot element and what makes a MacGuffin a MacGuffin.  The other part of it, which is that we the viewer don't know what it means is also key.  The classic example is the briefcase in Pulp Fiction.  The contents of the briefcase motivate the action, but we as viewers don't know what it is.  The viewer/reader can know what the MacGuffin is or not, the key thing is the motivating role of the MacGuffin in driving the plot forward.  There are lots of MacGuffins where the reader/viewer knows what it is: The Maltese Falcon is revealed to be a fake at the end of the film; the Ark of the Covenant is a well-known artifact, and there's nothing mysterious about it.  The dead body in Stand By Me/The Body.  That sort of thing.  The key thing of the MacGuffin is that it is a motivating object.  In the note above, it's a MacGuffin because it motivates the character to take further actions.  It could have been a phone call he received that we didn't hear the other side of, it could have been something someone whispered in his ear.  The MacGuffinness of it is in the interchangeability of the object itself in driving the plot forward, it doesn't matter to the plot which form it took, really, it just needed to be some message that the character got, that we don't know about, that then causes the character to do something.  That's why its a MacGuffin.  -- Jayron 32 17:25, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It's not a MacGuffin, because only one character is motivated by it, and the paper immediately loses its importance the moment it's chucked into the bin.--WaltCip (talk) 20:18, 20 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Setup? --Lambiam 16:42, 20 May 2020 (UTC)


 * It's a certain narrative perspective, in particular third person objective mode or camera-eye perspective. This doesn't have to be bad at all, as long as it's done consistently. If, however, we've just been told in the preceding paragraph what the character was thinking or feeling, then you're quite right in feeling let down (and "calculating how long it would take" is already dangerous). --Wrongfilter (talk) 16:58, 20 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Surprised nobody has called this what it most likely is -- a cliffhanger or a teaser. It's used all the time in radio or TV programming to get the viewer/listener to stay tuned in (and most importantly, listen to the commercials!).--WaltCip (talk) 20:27, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * This would be easier to discuss with real examples instead of a made-up one. For all we know, the event described may be in the middle of a chapter, one event in a long chain of contiguous events (subject goes to the gym, works out, returns home buying a newspaper on the way, notices an unopened envelope on the door mat, takes a shower, gets dressed, prepares breakfast, skims the paper while munching toast, muses about the news and realizes he should make haste getting to the Ministry, while getting ready to leave sees the envelope again and now opens it, grumbles and discards the letter, dons overcoat and leaves home, strides to the Ministry, every now and then hailing a cab in vain, arrives, has a brief exchange with the security guard, heads to his office but is intercepted on the way and urged into a meeting room, where to his surprise a number of big shots are assembled). In that context it is neither a cliffhanger nor a teaser. Also, we are told in a meta comment that paper says something important, but it is not clear from the presentation whether the reader will see this as such at the moment, or only after the reveal in the next chapter. --Lambiam 21:54, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * For the purpose of this discussion, and the fact that the passage is deliberately isolated (and as the OP said, made-up), I am assuming that it is the start of a chapter, in medias res as it were.--WaltCip (talk) 12:24, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Famous 1800s London person?
Who would be a very famous Englishman living in the London area in the mid-nineteenth century that would be referred to as "Sir Charles" that would be noted by writers? --Christie the puppy lover (talk) 21:57, 19 May 2020 (UTC)


 * I suppose Charles Trevelyan springs most immediately to mind, but "Sir Charles" is going to be pretty common. Charles Wood is another. Do you have any more context to help us? DuncanHill (talk) 22:10, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Sir Charles Barry, or Sir Charles McLaren, also Sir Charles James Napier (who has 10 pubs named after him), Sir Charles Lock Eastlake, or Sir Charles Bell perhaps? Alansplodge (talk) 10:07, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * But Aberconway was only born in 1850, and wasn't Sir Charles until 1902, so I think we can discount him. DuncanHill (talk) 15:46, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Quite right, I must have looked at his birth date by mistake. Alansplodge (talk)

Riot grrrl and men
Can a man also be a riot grrrl? Futurist110 (talk) 22:01, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Why not? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:26, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Probably not, but that doesn't mean that there were not men who were closely aligned with the movement, i.e. Kurt Cobain was close to many members, and his own political and social views closely aligned with theirs; he adopted many of the same musical conventions in his own songwriting. See, for example, the origin story of Smells Like Teen Spirit, or songs like Polly (Nirvana song), which were inspired by some of the same themes as riot grrrl.  This video does a pretty good job showing the connections that Cobain himself had to third wave feminism and riot grrrl.  -- Jayron 32 13:01, 20 May 2020 (UTC)


 * If you identify as a riot grrrl, you are a riot grrrl. Blueboar (talk) 13:03, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Huggy Bear (band) appears to have some male members.--Wikimedes (talk) 05:05, 21 May 2020 (UTC)