Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 May 2

= May 2 =

WWII German War Decorations
Two of the decorations of this chap here seem to be quite obvious. I wonder, if anybody could help me in identifying the star type thing on his right side. Thanks a lot and cheers, Oalexander (talk) 09:42, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It's WWI, not WWII (the person in question, Willy Rohr, distinguished himself in WWI and died in 1930). I couldn't find any German medals in that 5-pointed star shape, but could it be an Ottoman one, like the Gallipoli Star? There's nothing in the subject's bio about services related to the Ottoman Empire, but apparently it was sometimes awarded to soldiers from the Axis Power allies. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:05, 2 May 2020 (UTC)


 * According to the Research and Publishing Group of the New Zealand Ministry for Culture and Heritage, the term "Gallipoli Star" is a misnomer; they say the correct name is the "Ottoman War Medal". Anyhow, this forum thread, Ottomans and Allies decorated with the TWM includes the same photo of Rohr. Nothing more reliable yet. Alansplodge (talk) 10:24, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I've drawn a bit of a blank; however The "German Spirit" in the Ottoman and Turkish Army, 1908-1938 (pp. 85-88) by Gerhard Grüßhaber says that the Ottoman Army formed a stormtrooper battalion in 1917, the Turkish instructors being initially trained (presumably by Germans) in the occupied Ukraine and that German instructors were attached during the battalion's establishment and training. As Rohr had pioneered the stormtrooper tactic and was chief training officer for storm troops in 1917, he must have had some involvement in the Ottoman formation, either in remotely or in person. Alansplodge (talk) 11:03, 2 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The website Wehrmacht-awards.com has a section for "Gallipoli Star (Eiserner Halbmond) photos in wear". One of the entries is for Wilhelm "Willy" Rohr, with the same photograph, also seen in our article Willy Rohr.


 * The German Wikipedia page Sturm-Bataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr) mentions material support for the Ottoman Mesopotamian campaign. This may also have been a reason {or contributing factor) for awarding the Ottoman War Medal. --Lambiam 17:01, 2 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The German Wikipedia page Willy Rohr mentions (without giving a source) the Eiserner Halbmond (Iron Crescent) as one of his awards. --Lambiam 17:10, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

I thank everybody for assisting here! Cheers, Oalexander (talk) 01:21, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Black supporters of segregation
A slightly controversial question: Were there any black supporters of segregation in the United States, supporting of Separate but equal legislation? I ask this because I read about black individuals from the Apartheid era such as Kaiser Matanzima who actually supported what he called "parallel development".

History always seems to be told one-sided when it comes to the civil rights struggle, so that's why I'm wondering if any African Americans supported Jim Crow laws.

Thanks. --949,496,382 edits (talk) 10:17, 2 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Malcolm X and the Nation of Islam supported something like that: "While the civil rights movement fought against racial segregation, Malcolm X advocated the complete separation of African Americans from whites. He proposed that African Americans should return to Africa and that, in the interim, a separate country for black people in America should be created. He rejected the civil rights movement's strategy of nonviolence, arguing that black people should defend and advance themselves 'by any means necessary'." Adam Bishop (talk) 14:30, 2 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Some blacks supported parallel power structures for blacks and whites, either through a despair of ever being treated fairly by white institutions, or out of black nationalist sentiment, but extremely few supported the existing system of subordination. So it would be more accurate to say that such blacks supported "separatism", not "segregation".  That was a controversy in the black community as the 1960s went on -- all activists supported black rights, but some turned away from integration as a goal to separatism... AnonMoos (talk) 15:11, 2 May 2020 (UTC)


 * That makes sense. Interestingly enough, I could see one potential benefit for blacks in segregation (among many downsides, of course) in that the smart and well-educated blacks were forced to stay in black areas and thus could focus on improving those areas (by investing in these areas, by building schools, universities, and/or businesses in these areas, et cetera) as opposed to moving to "greener pastures" in white areas and thus leaving black areas and their remaining inhabitants to languish (since even if they would have actually had the opportunity, not everyone would necessarily actually be able to move out of the ghetto). So, in other words, one could have made an argument that segregation possibly prevented a brain drain in black areas and that integration might have ironically resulted in a brain drain in these areas considering that it finally allowed the smart and well-educated blacks to leave these neighborhoods and to move to "greener pastures" in white neighborhoods (and really, I certainly wouldn't blame them considering that few people would probably voluntarily want to live in a ghetto). This is actually similar to an argument that is sometimes used to justify immigration restrictions nowadays. As in, that we should prevent the Third World's smart people from emigrating in extremely huge numbers (and thus causing a brain drain in the Third World--possibly a severe one) so that these people could focus on improving their own countries and making life better for the rest of their own countrymen. Futurist110 (talk) 22:19, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * As I explained, "segregation" was a highly-loaded term with overwhelmingly negative connotations for black people. (The terms "separatism" or "black nationalism" would have been more likely to be used with positive connotations by some.)  There's a very limited degree of nostalgia among some for the days when black professionals (doctors, preachers, etc) lived right next to working-class blacks (as opposed to the overwhelming concentration of poor people in many neighborhoods today), but no nostalgia at all for many other features of black neighborhoods in those days, such as frequent crowding caused by increasing numbers of black people trying to fit in the limited urban areas where they were allowed to live, police making sure that most "vice" (prostitution, drugs etc) was shunted to black neighborhoods, the denial of federal mortgages to black neighborhoods etc. etc.  AnonMoos (talk) 23:35, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Yep, that certainly makes sense! Futurist110 (talk) 01:28, 4 May 2020 (UTC)


 * One major core problem with segregation was "separate but unequal." <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 17:52, 2 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Yep, definitely. Futurist110 (talk) 22:19, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Der Veker 1920-1921?
With some national libraries giving increased access to online archives during the pandemic, anyone knows if copies of the Minsk Yiddish newspaper Der Veker issues from 1920 or 1921 can be found online? --Soman (talk) 11:19, 2 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Der Veker should be available at Stanford in microform: . I was denied access to Worldcat, so I could not see which other libraries may have it. ("Please consult with your administrator", which means I should consult with myself.) A Google book search on "דער וועקער" "מינסק" gave no usable results. --Lambiam 16:02, 2 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks, although I couldn't read it online on the stanford.edu site. Essentially I want to check the name of the publishing institution between April 1920-April 1921, I think it wouldn't just be 'Kombund'. --Soman (talk) 18:19, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Per http://othes.univie.ac.at/60/1/Diplomarbeit_finalis.pdf, it seems the May 1, 1920 issue stated that the newspaper was the "central orgaN fuN „bund“ 'iN ratN-rusland" (Central organ of the 'Bund' in Soviet Russia). --Soman (talk) 18:32, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Finger pointing in martial art films
Seemingly a threatening finger pointing to an opponent is somewhat frequent in classic martial arts films, such as by Bruce Lee or Bolo Yeung in Bloodsport and Double Impact. Is this a known feature (possibly discussed somewhere)? Brandmeistertalk  19:43, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Although the pattern is supposed to be distanciating from the fu proper, you would find the nearest kind of discussions related to that feature starting at Heroic bloodshed, probably. --Askedonty (talk) 20:52, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
 * "distanciating"? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  04:12, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I failed to note that the term was a bit rare and specific, sorry. More like it here then (estrangement of the spectator to the filmic representation allows a questioning stance to the film). Action movies tend to be easier to summarize rather than to comment so I'd think that implied significations or intents in an actor's gesture or any other given step become best digested, and described once the pattern is considered an inheritance. --Askedonty (talk) 14:59, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * And twice were you right with you raising eyebrows, Jack, of course. "Cognitive estrangement" is at the heart of the famous Suspension of disbelief, one healthy but slightly different theme. --Askedonty (talk) 15:37, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * What a haunting and heavenly expression. I feel cognitively estranged from most people in my life, but never knew what to call it till now. Thank you. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:25, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Abū Jaʿfar al-Ghāfiqī and Muhammad ibn Aslam Al-Ghafiqi
The first person here is found all over the web with numerous sources describing him as a botanist and physician and the author of a book on medicinal herbs. The second person is also mentioned in numerous sources as an oculist. They came from the same area in Spain and had roughly the same date of death. I suspect that they were the same person but cannot locate a source which confirms this. Please help..... Paul venter (talk) 21:51, 2 May 2020 (UTC) An extract from a reference work showing the problem  Paul venter (talk) 22:04, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
 * This site (cited in one of our articles) states that the botanist may have been the son of the oculist. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:11, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you - that certainly helps to open new avenues of inquiry Paul venter (talk) 13:13, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * You're not supposed to upload an image to Wikipedia just to illustrate a question you are asking. You should have uploaded it to an image hosting website such as imgur instead. --Viennese Waltz 10:41, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Tsk Paul venter (talk) 13:13, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The Wüstenfeld mentioned in Future Perfect's link above is Ferdinand Wüstenfeld. Alansplodge (talk) 13:01, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Much obliged Paul venter (talk) 13:13, 3 May 2020 (UTC)