Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 November 2

= November 2 =

Locating medieval Women's slave market in Istanbul, Turkey?
Hello,

greetings to all,

Presently I am working on Draft:Avret Esir Pazary regarding Women's slave market in Istanbul, Turkey. I am looking for help in details of street/area location of historic  Women's slave market in Istanbul. It seems those details are mentioned @ following news article in Turkish language.

https://yenicizgihaber.com/koseyazisi/meger-neymissin-sen-avrat-pazari-yazisi-1035.html

Here with I would like to request your help in making location details available by translating above or any other Turkish language reliable source.

Looking forward to your kind help

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku (talk) 01:36, 2 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The author is apparently based in Gaziantep, and the author's Avrat Pazarı (which means "Woman Market", using a term for "woman" that is derogatory in present-day Turkish) is not the same as the Avrat Pazarı in Istanbul that Hans Christian Andersen allegedly wrote about, as presented by the author in a Turkish translation. What I understand from the Turkish translation of HCA's text is that the market was held in the colonnade of a wooden structure named Kızlarağası Hanı (which means something like "Girls' Master Lodge"), situated near the Grand Bazaar. The description of the location is not more precise than that. No such structure remains in Istanbul; there is one by that name in Izmir. The source of the passage by HCA is not identified; it is very similar to one in one of his travel diaries, En Digters Bazar, where he describes that "not far from the Grand Bazaar" there is a square surrounded by buildings that have a colonnade with small chambers where merchants have their wares: human beings, black and white slave girls. The Danish text does, however, not mention any terms that might be translated as Avrat or Kızlarağası Hanı.  --Lambiam 12:07, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

@ User:Lambiam, First of all thanks for your informative response.(I don't know if you have come across Draft:Aurats (word) Which intends to cater to historical linguistics of related cognates like Avrat/Avret. I would request you to support expanding of Draft:Aurats (word) too, if possible. My personal perception is, medieval middle eastern Turkish aristocrat (Commanders/Sardars)might have used word 'awrat' and cognates  to belittle 'captured women slaves' and 'non free women' during their military campaigns, Where local communities did not know it's use is denigrating those communities started using words more commonly but Turkish and Persians dropped the usage of word themselves realizing the usage of word was not fair enough. May be in due course we get some more refs from medieval Persian and Indian court accounts helping out historical linguistics) This was bit of side tracking let me come to main topic of this thread.

English Wikipedia has got an article Forum of Arcadius which is not clear enough on sources but seems to indicate Forum of Arcadius was the place in Istanbul where all women used to go for shopping and it was different than women's slave market in Istanbul. (This ref indicates market @Forum of Arcadius was burned down during some rebellion)

My personal guess is medieval middle eastern Women slave's markets and  in Istanbul too ought to have been in some sort of open access but partially enclosed places and usually  separate from male slave markets to avoid too openly sharing of skin show which Islamics principally were kind of averse to.

While information in article Forum of Arcadius though sans proper ref seems to indicate Istanbul's women's slave market would have been at "...Tavukpazari near Nur-u Osmaniye...otherwise known as 'Cariye'..."

Google translation of The author Fevzi Günenç of YeniCizgi Haber while does not note his source of information but seems confident enough about location of Women slaves market in Istanbul as ''"...There is a street in our city that starts right across the west-facing door of our Kemikli Bedestens, who have lived like twin brothers for more than a century, and opens to Şıhcan Street. Avrat Pazarı is the name of the narrow street that extends parallel to this street, north of İnönü Street, where the Old Municipality and Şıra Inn are located. I was very confused about why this street is called Avrat Pazarı...". I don't know if this google translation is accurate enough. One more thing about this detail is it mentions of 'nearby of Old Municipality'. Now some place which is claimed to be so close to a (old) Municipal place would have had some kind of municipal record, I mean chances are supposed to be there.

Again english Wikipedia article Hurrem Sultan at this moment as I see, seems to say, "...Among her first foundations were...and a women's hospital near the women's slave market (Avret Pazary) in Istanbul (Haseki Sultan Complex)..." again I am not aware of accuracy of sources etc.

I suppose Ottomans themselves were procuring few slaves from market so medieval municipal or court records should have some more info on specific locations of Women slaves market in Istanbul.

Thanks and regards

Bookku (talk) 14:16, 2 November 2020 (UTC)


 * I was mistaken in stating that the Danish text did not identify the gender of the slaves; slavinde is a female slave. I am aware of the etymology of avrat and the contemporary use in Hindi and Urdu. By the way, by the time the Ottomans were established in Constantinople, the Middle Ages were basically over; the use of "medieval era" in the draft suggests this took place in the Byzantine days, instead of well into the 19th century. The Forum of Arcadius, as seen on this map, is some two kilometres away from the location of the Grand Bazaar; although walkable, "not far from" is literally speaking true, but it is not your typical British understatement. But the geolocation given for the Haseki Sultan Complex is close to that for the Column of Arcadius – about 100 metres. The places Fevzi Günenç references (our city; our Kemikli Bedestens; Şıhcan Street; Avrat Pazarı; İnönü Street; the Old Municipality; Şıra Inn; the castle) are all located in Gaziantep. Nothing makes me think he is specifically knowledgeable about the location of historic places in Istanbul. I suspect that he copied the name Kızlarağası Hanı from some other source, possibly a translation of (part of) Andersen's book (Turkish title: Bir Şairin Çarşısı). --Lambiam 16:30, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

@ User:Lambiam, Your this response has been very helpful clarifying many things to me. As you rightly said instead of term 'medieval era' may be 'pre modern era' may be better term to use. I do have few more questions coming to my mind.
 * I come across Indian women scholars like Shadab Bano who researched pre modern trade in women slaves that includes references to to and fro (women) slave trade from Turkey and South Asia, Though south Asia's slave exports were more towards  Uzbekistan . I am still to include her research in the article. The question comes to my mind is are there any Turkish women researchers  who might have worked on research of non elite women slavery and Draft:Women, conflict and conflict zones (This large scope topic is imp focus area to me).
 * The second point comes to my mind is good number of Russians, Croatians slaves (may be male slaves) seems to have gone absconding at least few might have returned to Russia and so Russian or Croatians might have some records on slavery need to look for their scholarship on this topic.
 * Another intriguing question question to me is Circassians still seem to complaint against Russians about their expulsion from their erst while native territories but did not come across any Circassian voice questioning (women) slave trade or is it there and I did not chance upon to read it?

Any ways thanks again, for this productive and helpful discourse. Bookku (talk) 02:24, 3 November 2020 (UTC)


 * In the usual scheme of historical periodization, the term "modern era" refers to the the period following the Middle Ages, so "pre-modern era" would mean the same as "medieval era". The sad fact is that slave trade has been and is of all ages, continuing unabated to this day, the difference being that modern slavery is mostly an illegal or only semi-legal business.


 * The journey Hobhouse describes took place in 1809–10, and so the "last rebellion" must refer to the Ottoman coups of 1807–08, in particular Kabakçı Mustafa's rebellion of 1807. Apparently the "Aurat-Bazar" that Hobhouse reported to have been burnt down before 1810 was rebuilt on the same spot, as we can deduce from the 1839 book Constantinople and the Scenery of the Seven Churches of Asia Minor from which the illustration in the draft article is taken. It describes the "Aurut Bazaar" as standing "near the burnt column". That this refers to the Column of Arcadius is clear from an earlier book by Walsh (who was an abolitionist), A Residence at Constantinople. The same book specifically identifies the "Aurut Bazaar" as "[t]he usual place where Circassian slaves are sold".


 * There is an article by Necdet Sakaoğlu with the title "Avrat Pazarları" (which is the Turkish plural of "Avrat Pazarı") in Dünden Bugüne İstanbul Ansiklopedisi ("Istanbul Encyclopedia from Yesterday to Today"), volume 1, page 430. There is also an article by Özkan Ertuğrul entitled "Avrat Pazarı" in Türkiye Diyanet Vakfı İslâm Ansiklopedisi ("Turkey's Diyanet Foundation Islam Encyclopedia"), p. 125. They are not online, and I do not have access to a library.


 * The grudge Circassians may have against Russia has deeper grounds than just expulsion; see Circassian genocide. It is known that many of the women living in the Sultan's Imperial Harem, some of whom reached prominent positions, were originally Circassian slaves; see the article Circassian beauties. In general, I know very little about the slave trade beyond what you can easily find in Wikipedia. --Lambiam 10:53, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

@ Lambiam many many thanks for sharing well researched information, it's very helpful and nice of you. I will request at resource sharing board for page numbers you suggested. best wishes and warm regards Bookku (talk) 16:28, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Question about Trentino's voting in 1946
Does anyone here know if the extremely massive pro-republican margin in Trentino in Italy's 1946 institutional referendum had anything to do with the fact that the traditional monarchs in the Trentino were Hapsburgs as opposed to Savoyards? You can see just what I mean in the map on the right here. In this 1946 referendum, Trentino was one of the most--if not the most--pro-republican parts throughout all of Italy, with only parts of central Italy even coming close to Trentino in pro-republican sentiment in 1946! Futurist110 (talk) 06:21, 2 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Trentino was only 1 generation removed from not being Italian. Prior to 1919, it had been part of Austria.  See Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye (1919).  -- Jayron 32 16:52, 2 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Yes, I mentioned the traditional monarchs in Trentino being Hapsburgs as opposed to Savoyards in my original post here. Futurist110 (talk) 18:28, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Interestingly enough, Milan and Venetia also used to belong to the Hapsburgs, but extremely few voters in these regions in 1946 actually remembered Hapsburg rule due to the fact that it ended in these regions 80 or more years before 1946. In contrast, as you said, in Trentino, Hapsburg rule ended less than 30 years before 1946 and thus the voters there in 1946 had much more memories of Hapsburg rule. Futurist110 (talk) 18:32, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Aren't you really suggesting that Trentinoans used the referendum for abiding by the absurd Habsburg Law ? Askedonty (talk) 19:01, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It is also worth noting, regarding the general trend, that historically (going back centuries before this referendum) Northern Italy was historically republican (for whatever passed as a "Republic" in the middle ages) and Southern Italy was historically Monarchical. Southern Italy had been either the Papal States or the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies (or the two separate Kingdoms of Sicily before even that) while Northern Italy was largely Republican in nature.  Consider Republic of Pisa, Republic of Genoa, Republic of Venice, Republic of Florence, Republic of Lucca, etc.  The red bit in the northwestern corner is Italian Savoy/Piedmont, which provided the royal family for Italy.  There's probably a lot of historical memory and local pride in one's history that informs attitudes.  Southern Italians being proud of their long monarchical history, and Northern Italians for being proud of a long Republican tradition, even at a time when Republics were rare.  -- Jayron 32 19:04, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The Italian Wikipedia article on the vote explains the northern preference for a republic as rooted in the division of Italy after Sept 8 1943; the north then had two further years of German occupation and the forces most active in rebelling against that were republican-oriented political parties. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 19:20, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * So, before World War II, northern Italy was no more pro-republican than southern Italy was? Futurist110 (talk) 19:49, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Cases where a newly independent state was created from the territory of two or more countries simultaneously or almost simultaneously?
Which cases were there where a newly independent state was created from the territory of two or more countries simultaneously or almost simultaneously? For the record, I am thinking of substantial territorial contributions to this new state from multiple countries--not just minor territorial contributions. Anyway, I can think of:


 * The ISIS Caliphate: Created from the Sunni Arab-majority parts of both Iraq and Syria
 * The First Republic of Armenia/Wilsonian Armenia: Created from the Armenian-heavy parts of both the Russian Empire and the Ottoman Empire
 * The Democratic Republic of Georgia: Created from the Georgian-heavy parts of both the Russian Empire and the Ottoman Empire
 * The Second Polish Republic: Created from the Polish-heavy parts of the German Empire, Austria-Hungary, and the Russian Empire
 * Lithuania: Created from the Lithuanian-heavy parts of both the Russian Empire and the German Empire (in the latter case, the Memelland)

Anyway, which additional examples of this have there been throughout history? Futurist110 (talk) 06:55, 2 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Kingdom of Yugoslavia, " formed in 1918 by the merger of the provisional State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs (itself formed from territories of the former Austria-Hungary, encompassing Bosnia and Herzegovina and most of Croatia and Slovenia) and Banat, Bačka and Baranja (that had been part of the Kingdom of Hungary within Austria-Hungary) with the formerly independent Kingdom of Serbia". Alansplodge (talk) 14:58, 2 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Yes, but this could be thought to merely be a case of the Kingdom of Serbia expanding, no? I mean, the Serbian monarchy remained in power and the people who were in charge of Serbia before World War I were in charge of Yugoslavia after World War I. Futurist110 (talk) 18:30, 2 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Czechoslovakia from parts of Austria and the Kingdom of Hungary, which were both within Austria-Hungary but were separate states with their own parliaments, citizenship, passports, etc.
 * Tanzania from the British colony of Tanganyika and the Protectorate of Zanzibar within a few years. --Amble (talk) 19:37, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Yep, Czechoslovakia works for this if one considers pre-World War I Austria and pre-World War I Hungary to be separate entities--as would Tanzania. Futurist110 (talk) 19:48, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * But Tanzania doesn't, as both Tanganyika and Zanzibar were British-controlled. (Okay, they were briefly both independent, but I don't think it should count.) --174.95.161.129 (talk) 23:05, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * They were separate colonies, though--no? Futurist110 (talk) 21:30, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Tanganyika was a UN trust territory, and Zanzibar was a protectorate, so in principle neither was a colony. --Amble (talk) 21:37, 3 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Morocco before independence was a single kingdom divided between French and Spanish protectorates. You can decide whether that meets your criteria or not. --Amble (talk) 20:26, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Good; I suppose that it works for this--as would the Union of British and Italian Somaliland in 1960 as well as the Union of Moldavia and Wallachia in 1859. Futurist110 (talk) 21:06, 2 November 2020 (UTC)


 * The Republic of Cameroon, from French Cameroun and the (British) Southern Cameroons. --Lambiam 00:07, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
 * British India was a union of 560 Princely states and other territories, which came under the suzerainty of the British government. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:06, 4 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Several examples during, and just after the Napoleonic period. Napoleon created first the Cisalpine and Roman Republics, and then the Kingdom of Italy by forcible merger of the smaller independent states. He did the same in Germany, creating the Kingdom of Westphalia. In 1815 the new Kingdom of the Netherlands was establishes, merging the Dutch Republic and the Austrian Netherlands. There were also various changes in Italy and Germany, some of which involved new states created from several smaller ones. Wymspen (talk) 15:25, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

What would you call this architectural style and is it bullshit?
Half-timber with porcelain panels between the woods. Panels like a modern white 4x4 inch bathroom tile except much larger, flat, flush and can be rectangular not just square, bare wood without lacquer, shellac etc. Saturated medium-dark blue, green etc. porcelain accents of things like nature in some porcelain panels, flush in tight-fitting very well-made holes in the large panels. Bare wood doors with small stained glass window accents, old-fashioned horizontal-barless prison bars on all doors and outside windows which are the only normal sized windows (only ones big enough to crawl out of). Outside windows aren't stained or divided but might be 20th century additions. Inside has house-like rooms instead of a big one with pews. Seems like someone wanted to live in a townhouse that looks like a church with both 17th and 19th century elements inside and it became a jail in the 19th century. 3 floors high with 20 degree steep roof or so on all 4 sides, 25 or 20 feet wide and almost 100 long but that could just be the standard single-lot New York City building footprint imposed on anything space-constrained built after c. 1810 and shouldn't be used to judge style. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:05, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Pictures would help. Also, "is it bullshit" is not answerable in this forum.  "We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate."  -- Jayron 32 16:14, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Is it something 19th century people didn't or wouldn't have built is what I meant by bullshit. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:43, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia has an entire category called Category:19th-century architecture. You can research it yourself starting there, and decide whether or not you believe it to be bullshit based on your research.  -- Jayron 32 16:49, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * List_of_architectural_styles might also be useful, since it is sorted both chronologically and geographically. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 19:23, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Isambard Kingdom Brunel in the United States
Is there a reason why Isambard Kingdom Brunel seems to be so unknown in the USA? I understand that he's a British figure but looking at the top ten people of 100 Greatest Britons, I know every single one well except him, and when I inquired to some of my friends and family members they were all on the same page as me, although some of them didn't know Horatio Nelson. It just seems like he has a Shakespearean type influence in engineering but is not as "god-like" famous as Einstein, Beethoven, Van Gogh etc. Any thoughts? Aza24 (talk) 22:03, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * As an American myself, it's worth noting that I remember Brunel just as much for almost choking to death on a coin back in 1843 as I do for his engineering work. Brunel could have been an early version of Tennessee Williams in regards to the manner of his death had he not managed to remove that coin from his throat! Futurist110 (talk) 23:48, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * "While performing a conjuring trick for the amusement of his children in 1843 Brunel accidentally inhaled a half-sovereign coin, which became lodged in his windpipe. A special pair of forceps failed to remove it, as did a machine devised by Brunel to shake it loose. At the suggestion of his father, Brunel was strapped to a board and turned upside-down, and the coin was jerked free.[83] He recuperated at Teignmouth, and enjoyed the area so much that he purchased an estate at Watcombe in Torquay, Devon. Here he commissioned William Burn to design Brunel Manor and its gardens to be his country home.[84] He never saw the house or gardens finished as he died before it was completed.[85]" Futurist110 (talk) 23:49, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The best part of the story is not how the coin got stuck, but how it was removed. An engineer's solution if there ever was one! --174.95.161.129 (talk) 01:09, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Agreed! It was great that they were finally able to discover a way to remove this coin from his windpipe! Futurist110 (talk) 23:14, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Every country has their own "famous here but unknown other places" people. Not every American that could be named by every school child in the U.S. is necessarily well known in the UK.  There's only so many minutes in a typical 13-year public education in the U.S., and there are not enough of those minutes to give due time to every deserving person in every country around the world.  Some decisions have to be made on who to teach children about and who to not.  -- Jayron 32 00:13, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * If you can find it Great (1975 film) is a delightful way to learn about IKB. I saw it in college in the late 70's and was spurred on to learn more about him. It was pulled from YouTube years ago but maybe it is streaming somewhere else. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 00:18, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Here is a snippet to give you a taste. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 00:20, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * This is the first I've heard of him. Quickly glancing at the list of great Brits (and not studiously), they seem to me to have been either:
 * active before 1812 (if not before the American Revolution) and so far enough back that knowledge of them could just naturally drift to any English speaking country
 * notable for being the creator and/or subject of mass media that was easy enough to ship to the US (mostly books) within a decade of their lifetimes
 * physically present in the Americas in ways that affected the locals to this day
 * Brunel, neat fellow he is otherwise, doesn't fall under any of those points. Brunel dramatically improved translatlantic shipping but was not a shipping magnate with his name plastered all over his boats.  He built the ship that would lay the telegraph cable between the US and UK but that wasn't his intended purpose for it.  That seems to be the extent that his projects affected the US.  His downfall appears to have been being too humble to shout "I MADE THIS BOAT!" across the Atlantic.  I can only assume that if one were to take a course in a US university on modern British history or especially transatlantic history, that he would be mentioned at least in passing and would be a viable research paper topic.  However, when it comes to primary or secondary education in the US, Brunel would merit no more than a line in the Industrial Revolution chapter in a US textbook ("Isambard Kingdom Brunel developed a new style of steamships that could more efficiently cross the Atlantic") but could still be a research paper topic.  I'd start to compare that to Brits learning about Eli Whitney... but it looks like they actually do, which makes sense because the American Civil War raising the price of cotton for Britain was one of the reasons they increased efforts to control Egypt and India.  ...No, wait, that's just a Black History module that was just imported from America.  Ian.thomson (talk) 00:51, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I am a big fan of Brunel but it must be admitted that many of his big projects were less than fully successful. If he had shouted "I MADE THIS BOAT!", the answer might well have been "So what?"  Also, he died relatively young, so he had less chance to do that.  --174.95.161.129 (talk) 01:09, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

IKB's strengths were civil engineering (especially bridges for the railways but also roads) and marine engineering (his ships were innovative but the Great Western was not the first steam ship to cross the Atlantic and the Great Eastern was something of a white elephant). He left railway locomotives to others (Daniel Gooch in particular) He seems to be better known in Britain than some of his contemporaries and this puzzles me. Thomas Telford (civil engineer for roads and canals) and George and Robert Stephenson who were locomotive and civil engineers seem much more important to me and yet they come much further down the list of 100 Great Britons. George Stephenson is in the list-I am not sure the other two are on it. Sorry if this is too much of an opinion based comment.Spinney Hill (talk) 10:00, 3 November 2020 (UTC).


 * I've always thought that Richard Trevithick got a bit of a raw deal in the famous engineers department. Stephenson's Rocket was the one we learned about at school, which was a long chalk from being the first locomotive. Nobody ignores the Wright Brothers just because their aircraft wasn't very practical. Alansplodge (talk) 13:07, 4 November 2020 (UTC)