Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 October 25

= October 25 =

Why didn't the Ottoman Empire ever claim Crimea during World War I?
Why didn't the Ottoman Empire ever claim Crimea during World War I? Crimea still had a huge Muslim population in 1897, after all--with Muslims being close to a plurality, if not an outright plurality, in some parts of Crimea in 1897. Futurist110 (talk) 04:16, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Claiming is an empty act if one cannot keep the territory under control and defend it against attempts of reconquering it. The major cities were ethnically predominantly Russian. Support by the rural population would not have been much help to Ottoman ambitions. After the ill-conceived Black Sea Raid had thrust the neutral Empire into a war, it had been mainly forced into defensive action. Presumably, the prize of controlling Crimea was not considered worth the military cost required for conquering and maintaining control. --Lambiam
 * For what it's worth, though, Crimea can probably be defended rather well by land due to its extremely narrow land connection to the rest of Russia and Ukraine. Futurist110 (talk) 19:20, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I believe the Turks had much more pressing concerns to address, as their empire was collapsing on all fronts. In fact, they were lucky to keep Constantinople and the Dardanelles after the British and French empires had decided to award these territories to Russia in 1915. Many Turks still remembered the Russian troops at Yeşilköy (part of Istanbul), where they were halted only by the diplomatic hysteria of Paris and London. Ghirla-трёп- 07:32, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Another problem was the almost complete obsolescence of their navy, which was outclassed by the Russian Black Sea Fleet. They did mount the Black Sea Raid on Crimean ports in October 1914, but spent the rest of the war playing hide-and-seek. Naval superiority is a prerequisite for any major amphibious operation. They also had their hands full defending themselves against repeated Russian offensives in the Caucasus campaign. Alansplodge (talk) 10:26, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * At the outset of WWI, the Ottoman Empire was the sick man of Europe. Though it was on the winning side in the Crimean War, it was basically treated like the annoying little brother by Britain and France.  Internally, the Ottomans had been losing much of its European territory to independence movements throughout the Balkans, and most of the rest of the Great Powers saw little reason to stop this (and many encouraged it).  Just prior to World War I, the Ottomans had been embarrassed in the Balkan Wars.  It isn't even clear why the Ottomans were in World War I anyways; they were kind of backed into it by accident, and suddenly found themselves at war and allied with Germany.  Their entry was not carried out with the full participation of the Ottoman government or the Sultan, it was basically a conspiracy between Enver Pasha and German Admiral Wilhelm Souchon, without the knowledge of anyone in the Ottoman government, to force the Ottoman Empire into the War.  See Black Sea Raid.  Considering the ignominious way the Ottomans entered the war, the rather disorganized state of the Government, and the swift and harsh retaliation from Britain, France, and Russia in the Middle Eastern theatre of World War I and the way in which various groups within the Ottoman Empire sided with the Allies meant the Ottomans were in no position to invade Crimea, or really anywhere else.  -- Jayron 32 16:44, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

"That obscene parody of a human face"
In the Hallowe'en Party episode of Agatha Christie's Poirot Poirot is listening to the radio, we hear "The feeling of sick dread came over me as I gazed upon that dreadful countenance and that obscene parody of a human face. Even as I watched, his bloodshot eyeball begin to roll down his livid, green skin. “Fool”, he hissed. “Insect”…" and then Poirot turns it off. What I want to know is a) was this in the original book, and b) is it a quotation from an actual work (it sounds vaguely familiar to me)? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 13:15, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Dodd, Mead & Co., New York, 1969 doesn't seem to have that text, can't find the earlier UK edition. fiveby(zero) 13:36, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Sounds like something M. R. James would have written, but I can't tell you the exact work at the moment. Girth Summit  (blether)  13:39, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * M. R. James was a much finer stylist than Christie. He would never have written anything of the sort. Ghirla-трёп- 07:35, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree with both statements, but we can establish (via searching the text linked by Fiveby) that the passage does not exist in Christie's text – indeed it has no mention of "radio" (or "wireless"), suggesting that the entire scene has been added by the screenwriters of the TV adaptation. Moreover, as it's supposed to be part of a radio broadcast that Poirot is listening to, it would be internally consistent for it not to be in the default style of the prose.
 * Oddly enough, the only hits I find by web-searching for the words Fool!" he hissed."Insect! [sic as they actually appear] are on a translation website tr-ex.me showing examples of translating "Hiss" into German and Dutch. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.218.14.156 (talk) 11:22, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, I found those translations too. I'm sure it's not M R James, I've read and re-read his stories many times over forty-odd years, and it just doesn't sound like him. More like Sax Rohmer or Norbert Jacques perhaps. DuncanHill (talk) 11:32, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Fair enough - I read James as a 'young adult', haven't dipped into it for a while, just a thought. Girth Summit  (blether)  15:55, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

M. J. Maynard
Can we find a full name and dates for M. J. Maynard, also known as Mrs. C. C. Garbett (British, fl. in Iraq in 1921)? Or any other info? Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:34, 25 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Sir Colin Campbell Garbett (1881-1972) second-wife was called "Marjorie Josephine Maynard", they were married in Bengal Presidency on 20 January 1919 according to the British India Office Marriage Index. She appears to have been born in Preston, Lancashire in 1891 the daughter of Frederic Prisent Maynard. MilborneOne (talk) 16:59, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * She appears to have died in Westminster at then end of 1975, her date of birth was given as 23 January 1891. Lots of stuff about her in the newspapers in 1950s when they government kicked her of ther farm in Sussex for keeping smelly animals. MilborneOne (talk) 17:11, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * She died on 23 October 1975 according to the government probate search webpage. MilborneOne (talk) 17:13, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * has Marjorie, if that wasn't a typo. fiveby(zero) 17:14, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It was a typo sorry for that and thanks, I have corrected it above. MilborneOne (talk) 17:26, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for all that. What's the source for the birth date? Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:42, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * ICYMI. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:40, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Andy, the General Register Office Death Index has her death recorded in Q4 of 1975 in the Westminster registration district, volume 15, page 1969 and gives her date of birth as 23 Jan 1891 it can be seen using https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl MilborneOne (talk) 21:13, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:34, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

E-scooters
A "road" is "...any highway and any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes." A "highway" is "a way over which the public has a right to pass and re-pass by foot, horse or vehicle, or with animals." A "vehicle" is a "carriage or conveyance of any kind used on land." A "mechanically propelled vehicle" is a vehicle (including electrical vehicles) which can be propelled by mechanical means."  A "motor vehicle" is "a mechanically propelled vehicle intended or adapted for use on roads."   E-scooters aren't allowed on pavements and Chief Constable of North Yorkshire Police v Saddington [2001] RTR 15 decided that as they offer an opportunity to get quickly through traffic they are road vehicles.   A "driver" is a "person engaged in the driving of the vehicle."   Cyclists, for example, are drivers.   E-scooters must be taxed and insured (because they don't have pedals) and a licence is needed to ride one,.

In DPP v King [2008] EWHC 447 (Admin) an e-scooter rider was convicted of driving a motor vehicle while disqualified and with no insurance. In Coates v CPS (2011) EWHC 2032 (Admin) it was decided that a Segway was a motor vehicle. All vehicles being used on roads must be lit at night. Are the police prosecuting e-scooter riders for riding without licence/lights/numberplates/tax/insurance, etc.? 92.8.180.182 (talk) 16:51, 25 October 2020 (UTC)


 * A bicycle is a vehicle.194.53.186.132 (talk) 15:07, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * A motorcycle is a "motor bicycle".  An e-scooter is also a "motor bicycle" unless its wheels are less than 46 cm apart.   Looking at someone whizzing past on the pavement on one of these things yesterday the wheels seem to be a lot more than 46 cm apart.   That means the rider is also required to wear a crash helmet (apart from not riding on the pavement). 194.53.186.175 (talk) 11:59, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The regulations are comprehensive, but there is no requirement on the pillion passenger on a motorcycle to face forward.  This is presumably because it did not occur to the legislators that anyone would be daft enough to face the other way.   The person in the front seat is the "driver". 194.53.186.163 (talk) 12:09, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Old rolling stock
British Rail Class 483 is the oldest rolling stock in passenger service in the UK. Is there any older stock in general (not heritage) service anywhere else in the world? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 21:01, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * For everyone's convenience, those cars were built in 1938. --174.89.48.182 (talk) 00:02, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Correction: 1939 and 1940. I believed what it said at the top of the linked article rather than looking at the roster at the bottom. --174.89.48.182 (talk) 00:16, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * These are not in passenger service, but the Rhätische Bahn still uses the electric Rhaetian Railway Ge 2/2 (built 1911) and Bernina-Bahngesellschaft Fe 2/2 51 (built 1909) for shunting duties. They also have the Xrot d 9213 steam-powered rotary snowplough, built in 1910, which is sometimes needed on the Bernina railway, although more commonly used for demonstrations for tourists. Other Swiss railways may have some more very old rolling stock, mostly for shunting or maintenance. The Italians like to keep rolling stock for a very long time too. PiusImpavidus (talk) 21:38, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Melbourne (W-class) and Milan (Class 1500) both have trams in daily service that are older than that. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:02, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Being realistic, those W-class trams in Melbourne run on the City Circle tourist route, so they are primarily a heritage service, although locals do use them for short commutes at times. Those used for the Colonial Tramcar Restaurant service stopped running two years ago. HiLo48 (talk) 10:32, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Being realistic, they are in daily use on a public service, operated by a public operator, sharing tracks and stops with other public services. They are not on a heritage line. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:59, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Our article City Circle tram uses the words "Aimed mainly at tourists". HiLo48 (talk) 22:58, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Where in Duncan's question does he say "not aimed at tourists"? Who do you think the current Class 483 service is aimed at? Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 01:19, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Our article City Circle tram uses the words "Aimed mainly at tourists". HiLo48 (talk) 22:58, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Where in Duncan's question does he say "not aimed at tourists"? Who do you think the current Class 483 service is aimed at? Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 01:19, 27 October 2020 (UTC)


 * I believe the oldest in the U.S. in regular passenger service is on the ironically named Ashmont–Mattapan High-Speed Line (currently the slowest line on the Boston T). The rail cars were built in 1944-1945 though they have been overhauled a few times.  -- Jayron 32 16:26, 26 October 2020 (UTC)