Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 October 27

= October 27 =

Mass murders/anthropogenic disasters for which the classifications of genocide are currently controversial among scholars?
I am trying to construct an exhaustive list of all instances of wars, mass murders, and famines for which there is currently no academic consensus among historians and other scholars whether or not each of them constitutes an instance of genocide. If you know of any ongoing genocide classification controversy that is not included in the above list, please point it out. I am not looking for genocides that are still being denied by a few fringe historians or a single country like the Armenian genocide, the Bosnian genocide, and the Cambodian genocide. StellarHalo (talk) 03:34, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Atrocities in the Congo Free State
 * Great Irish Famine
 * Indonesian mass killings of 1965–66
 * Albigensian Crusade
 * War in the Vendée
 * Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia
 * Population decline of Native Americans after 1492 and before 1900
 * Holodomor
 * Kazakh famine of 1932–33
 * The extermination of Canaanites
 * South African Farm Murders? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.150.105.98 (talk) 08:52, 27 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Armenian Genocide and Armenian Genocide denial - also Assyrian genocide and Greek genocide. Alansplodge (talk) 08:56, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * British concentration camps are described in our article as resulting in "Genocide of the Boers" without any source. A counter-argument might be neglect and incompetence. Alansplodge (talk) 12:37, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Aboriginal Tasmanians. --Antiquary (talk) 13:41, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * A large part of the history of the Migration Period and the Viking Age consists of invasions that might or might not be treated as genocidal. Were conquered peoples exterminated, driven out or assimilated?  There's an interesting discussion here. --Antiquary (talk) 14:07, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * On the flipside, there's probably some case to be made for genocides being attributed to early state societies, especially the Roman Empire, Achaemenid Empire, Shang dynasty, etc. Many of the cultures subsumed into these empires ceased to exist after they came to town.  After all, how many Etruscans have you met lately?  -- Jayron 32 17:28, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I might argue that the Etruscan culture and people did not experience genocide so much as absorbtion, but for a more clear cut and entirely deliberate Roman example, see the Dacians. I have read that Julius Caesar was denounced in the Senate for an unnecessary genocide (possibly that of the Eburones or the Atuatuci) – but I don't know what terms might have been used as the English word is a 20th-century coinage. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.218.14.156 (talk) 19:05, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Firstly, the Etruscans sided with Hannibal, then the final straw, they sided against Rome in the Social War. Sleigh (talk) 07:13, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * That war arose from the Etruscans and other long-standing allies of Rome wanting full Roman citizenship and corresponding rights. Although Rome won the actual war, it then acquiesced to these demands to avoid further conflict and "The Etruscans and the Italic peoples quickly integrated themselves into the Roman world, after gaining Roman citizenship. Their own languages and cultures became extinct in the process . . . ." This is not genocide in the normal understanding of the term. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} #2.218.14.156 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 16:29, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

For whom the bell tolls
A new report says 95% of people will not gain lasting immunity from the novel coronavirus. The only way to deal with it long term is therefore to stamp it out entirely. Those countries that have succeeded (although there is always "leakage" from other countries) have employed curfews. This makes sense, because it is largely the young who are spreading the disease. The governments within the British Isles mention travel restrictions but not curfews. Is there a reason for this? Have curfews been imposed in America? Have they ever been imposed in Britain (during the Second World War, for example)? 2A00:23C4:5709:A00:858E:FA67:FFF5:1457 (talk) 17:33, 27 October 2020 (UTC)


 * As far as I know, there was never a curfew in Britain in either world war, but the Defence of the Realm Act 1914 made pubs close at 9:30 pm. Pubs have to shut at 10 now.
 * When we were at junior school we learned about that beastly William I and his curfew thus:
 * "So William decided these rebels to quell By ringing a curfew - a sort of a bell And if any Saxon was found out of bed After eight o'clock sharp it was "Off with his head!" (Eleanor Farjeon and Herbert Farjeon), 1931)"


 * Perhaps some childhood memory of this tyranny is holding our lords and masters back from the brink? :-) Alansplodge (talk) 21:26, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, in my state the sale of alcoholic beverages by the drink has been cut off at 11:00 PM instead of 2:00 AM. No real "you can't be out after this time" curfew, but definitely removing a major factor in keeping people out late. --Khajidha (talk) 11:43, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
 * "" I'm assuming by curfew you mean time specific restrictions rather than a simple lockdown enforced all the time. If so, I guess it depends what you mean by succeeded but NZ does not appear to have ongoing community transmission and has not used any curfews. We have used strict lockdowns.  Initially this included no leaving the house except for exercise locally or visiting an essential service or work (that was allowed). Restaurants (and most workplaces and non essential stores) were closed completely (level 4) or restaurants were only open for contactless takeaway service (level 3). Obviously social gatherings were extremely limited. Even under level 2, social gatherings were limited with restrictions in place for bars etc too. [//covid19.govt.nz/everyday-life/bars-and-night-clubs/] [//covid19.govt.nz/alert-system/]  I'm not sure how much curfews were used in China either e.g. Wuhan. I see some mention of curfews at COVID-19 pandemic in mainland China but then again one of those described doesn't sound like a real curfew but a very strict lockdown, i.e. no leaving your house except when authorised and you can only do it every 2 days etc. (Maybe there were also regulations on what time people could leave but this isn't mentioned.)  To be fair, much of NZ is dead at night anyway. Most super markets close at 10 pm or earlier and a lot of shops close earlier. Even restaurants except for fast food often close before 10 pm although some do have later hours especially those catering to the Asian crowd. Pubs may be open although even they can be fairly quiet when it isn't the weekend I think.  During lock downs especially level 4, some super markets and I think possibly all 24 hour ones operated with reduced hours. Possibly there was some government pressure behind this but I think it was mostly commercial and logistics given the need to restock and probably even fewer people willing to shop at that time. Some restaurants also operated reduced hours in level 3 although there were very, very long queues at the drive thru at 5 am at my local McDonalds when they opened again at level 3.  I think amongst other issues like geography and a low population density, NZ did get lucky. Still if you're keeping pubs or restaurants open for dine in service or allowing gatherings, then perhaps curfews make sense. The reason for curfews when you're not allowing such things is less clear to me.  Perhaps it makes it a bit easier for police to enforce the lockdowns since if they see someone out past curfew there's a good chance they're doing something questionable. And likewise less resources need to be spent monitoring compliance (since it's easier to look for restaurants etc still open than to check if they're enforcing social distancing or illicitly allowing people to dine it).  Of course high levels of public support and voluntary compliance also helps. From what I've saw, read and heard, compliance was fairly high in level 4 probably getting a bit worse near the end. But still fairly high when we moved to level 3. With the second level 3 lock down in Auckland, compliance was noticeably lower. Likewise under level 2, compliance especially physical distancing was observed a lot more poorly the second time around.  It's generally speculated another level 3 may be difficult and level 4 even more so, although then again, that was before the recent rises in Europe or even the extremity of Victoria's lockdown, which may have made a difference.  Nil Einne (talk) 13:57, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I should clarify I'm not saying that NZ's method, let alone China's were good options. Nor am I trying to downplay the complicated interaction of human behaviour and responses to rules and regulations and the spread of SARS-CoV-2. And perhaps I should mention by geography, I'm including geographical isolation. My main purpose was to question the claim curfews must be used, since I find this questionable. If you implement strict rules which limit how people may interact at all times, it's unclear to me whether there's any added benefit for time based rules. Perhaps curfews also work and so could be a better alternative due to allowing increased economic activity and being less onerous, that's IMO unanswerable at this time and in any case not within the scope of my comment. Nil Einne (talk) 04:29, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Spooky action at a distance
On the radio last night Lynn Parsons pointed out that the next full moon will fall on Hallowe'en. Combining Hallowe'en with a full moon and a Saturday night could (in normal times) be a recipe for some very unusual happenings. This conjunction occurs, on average, once every (7 x 30) = 210 years (there being seven days in a week and about 30 days in a month). Was anything noticed the last time it happened? 2.31.65.97 (talk) 18:40, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The list at covers 1900-2099, 200 years.  It lists 9 occurrences of a full moon on Halloween, and 2 with a full moon on Halloween on a Saturday:
 * 1925 Oct 31 17:17 Sat    2424455.220
 * 1944 Oct 31 13:35 Tue    2431395.066
 * 1955 Oct 31 06:05 Mon    2435411.753
 * 1974 Oct 31 01:20 Thu    2442351.555
 * 2020 Oct 31 14:51 Sat    2459154.119
 * 2039 Oct 31 22:38 Mon    2466093.443
 * 2058 Oct 31 12:56 Thu    2473033.039
 * 2077 Oct 31 10:38 Sun    2479972.943
 * 2096 Oct 31 11:19 Wed    2486912.972
 * The counts line up reasonably well with your simple calculation.  We have a list of events for Oct 31, 1925: October_1925.  It will be interesting to see whether any of those events happens every time there's a full moon on Halloween on a Saturday. --Amble (talk) 18:55, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * At the risk of breaching WP:CRYSTAL, I doubt that Mikhail Frunze will die again. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:59, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Seems unlikely, but after all it is 2020. --Amble (talk) 20:14, 27 October 2020 (UTC)


 * It needs to be pointed out that the date of any event depends on the time zone in use. The list that Amber posted is based on GMT.  If you live in California, for example, the 1974 entry on the list does not apply because the full moon was on October 30 there, but you can add an entry for 1906 when the full moon by GMT was at 04:45 on November 1. --174.89.48.182 (talk) 21:10, 27 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Technically, yes, depending on how precisely you want the moon to be full. For example, in some werewolf lore it's said that the beast transforms on "the three nights of the full moon", which is pretty generous. Matt Deres (talk) 13:22, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Full moon Saturday night Halloween in an election year for some. fiveby(zero) 21:37, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Here in the US where I am, it is also the night when daylight saving time ends (technically at 2:00 AM on November 1). A whole extra hour for your spooky revels.--Khajidha (talk) 11:40, 28 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Halloween has been linked to a lower-than-expected number of births and higher pedestrian-involved traffic accidents . Full moons to increased male as opposed to female births and more aggressive stock market trading. Saturday to youth drinking and oil tanker spills . But no one seems to have investigated all three at once. As Amble's calculation shows, there would be sample size issues. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 14:03, 28 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Re this comment:

"31 October 1906 wouldn't have been a Saturday - the dates repeat (usually) every 28 years so the nearest would have been 1908. (The days of the week never repeat after 19 years (1925 - 1906 = 19) although the full moons frequently do." - 92.27.12.232 14:32, 28 October 2020

That seems to be right - 1868 to 1925 is 57 years and 1925 to 2020 is 95 years - both multiples of 19. So using that it should be easy to track this back a lot further than 1868 - certainly back to the calendar change in 1752. 31.185.254.52 (talk) 14:46, 29 October 2020 (UTC)


 * The 19-year lunar repeat period is known as the Metonic cycle, while the 28-year period is the Julian calendar date cycle, sometimes known as the "solar cycle" (i.e. when the same day of the week, month, and day of the month combinations recur in the Julian calendar -- things are more complicated for the Gregorian calendar). If you multiply 28 and 19 together, you get a 532-year period that was important in Easter calculations from at least the time of Dionysus Exiguus.  If you multiply 28 years time 19 years times a third period of 15 years, you get the starting point of Julian day calculations... AnonMoos (talk) 21:20, 29 October 2020 (UTC)