Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2020 September 23

= September 23 =

Lodz Ghetto liquidation question
Does anyone here know just how much of a factor the Red Army's advance into Poland in the summer of 1944 was in the liquidation of the Lod Ghetto in August 1944? Futurist110 (talk) 00:46, 23 September 2020 (UTC)


 * According to The Chronicle of the Lodz Ghetto, 1941-1944 (into, p. lxi), the idea was first mooted in the summer of 1943 by Max Horn due to the inefficiency of the ghetto compared to the concentration camps. The approach of the Soviets seems to have delayed it. 176.227.136.190 (talk) 13:44, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Polish history question
Are the figures Wincenty Kononowicz (1722-1801; szlachcic, contributor to the Polish Constitution of 1791 and leader of the Szlachta Revolt of 1788) and Tadeusz Cyrankiewicz (1904-1944; armed combatant in the Polish Home Army, insurrectionist and poet) notable historical figures? I only ask because neither has an article on the English or Polish Wikipedias yet do have one on the Scots Wikipedia, written by a user who doesn't seem to understand the Scots language very well yet is uploading there rather than on the Polish or English sites, which seems odd to me.

As I don't speak Polish or have much knowledge of Polish history I can't say whether the sources are reliable or say what they claim, but I do find it odd that none of them appear to be available online. --Bangalamania (talk) 01:58, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * They seem notable enough to me. Futurist110 (talk) 03:40, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * From their descriptions they certainly would appear notable, but I am very much struggling to find any references to them existing at all, in Polish or English.
 * The references given in the article can't be accessed online–which isn't bad in an of itself, but I'd expect to see at least a line or two on some Polish history site at the very least if these people existed. Again, I'm no expert and I don't speak Polish, so I could be missing something, but this seems fishy to me. Why wouldn't this user go to the Polish Wikipedia to make these articles if they speak Polish? Or  English WP?
 * They're not a native Scots speaker (full disclosure: neither am I) and are using a strange orthography in their writing. It's much easier to manipulate and pull hoaxes on Wikipedias with fewer active editors, especially one which has been in the news recently like the Scots WP.
 * P.S. I just realised that the photo used in Cyrankiewicz's article is of someone else). I'm suspecting this is a hoax. –Bangalamania (talk) 05:12, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Another Wikipedia hoax! :( Futurist110 (talk) 06:12, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Before I read the above, I came to the same conclusion and returned here to post it. The references don't seem to work out. --Lambiam 12:36, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * The two articles were created by the same editor, who did no content work on any other article. They also had a BS response on their talk page to being challenged regarding their Scots ability. The validity of the articles is also questioned there. I can upgrade the hoaxiness level from "suspected" to "definite". --Lambiam 12:45, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Five tillahs of gold - bidding for a slave
In we read that while Alexander Gardener is on the way to Merv, a gang of Turki-speaking travellers attempted to buy him from his Therbah companions as a slave. "At six-foot tall and of athletic build, Gardner was evidently rated a prize specimen, fit to grace the bodyguard of any tyrant. The bidding rose to 5 tillahs of gold". How much was a tillah? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 14:27, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * As a start, Gardner gives a value later in his memoir: “In the regular slave-markets, or in transactions between dealers, it is the custom to pay for slaves in money ; the usual medium being either Bokharan gold tillahs (in value about 5 or 5J Company rupees each), or in gold bars or gold grain.” Wikipedia has Exchange rate history of the Indian rupee (why?) but it does not go back to the 19th century, so further research is required to now determine the value of a company rupee c. 1820 :) 70.67.193.176 (talk) 15:18, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Must run, but this source says when new British coins were minted in 1835 the company rupee was 180 troy grains of which 165 grains were pure silver. No time now to delve into value of silver at that time. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 15:25, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Per, it took about 15 oz silver to buy 1 oz gold in the period of Gardner’s trip. So the value of the 5 company rupees (5 x 165 troy grains =1.88 oz silver) would be 0.125 oz gold (please check math). Per , gold was worth L3.17s. 10d per troy ounce in Britain from 1717 to 1914. So if the slavers had brought their 5 tillahs to England they could have bought (please check math again) 9s.12d worth of goods… and finally, per , this was how much money a male labourer in Europe (for some reason, Sweden specifically?) could earn with 115 hours of work in 1820. So around a fortnight’s wages…?? 70.67.193.176 (talk) 23:10, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * (ec) I found this from the Proceedings of the Royal Geographical Society of London, 1872-3. Under the heading 'Exchange of Yarkand Currency with Indian' it says '1 tillah = 6 rupees = 1080 tangas (average)', which may or may not be helpful to you.  AndrewWTaylor (talk) 15:22, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Russian and English equivalents by city in Unfortunately Merv not listed, unless it would be under Various. fiveby(zero) 14:48, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * There were twelve pennies in a shilling, so what is this 9s. 12d?  A troy ounce is 480 grains (the weight of a grain is the same in all imperial weights).   5 x 165 grains is 825 grains, which is 825/480 = 1.719 ounces.   The avoirdupois ounce is 437 1/2 grains, so 825 grains is 1.89 ounces avoirdupois, but precious metal weights are given in Troy ounces.   The Unbearable Saki: the work of H H Munro by Sandie Byrne (Oxford, 2007 ISBN 978-0-19-922605-4)  says:

"Whereas most currencies were based on the gold standard, Indian currency was based on the silver. The discovery of large quantities of silver in the US and elsewhere led to a fall in its price.   Between 1871 and 1896 the value of the pound against the rupee increased from 10.8 to 16.6"
 * From Andrew's link, in 1872 five tillahs were worth 30 rupees, and during the slave trade we're told they were worth 25 to 27 1/2 rupees.  From 70.67's link, in 1820 silver was 1.40 dollars per ounce and in 1871 it was about 1.50 dollars per ounce.   At an exchange rate of 10.8 rupees to a pound those five tillahs would be worth about two pounds, six shillings and fourpence. 2A00:23C6:2403:E900:48F:ADBB:1466:C011 (talk) 17:17, 24 September 2020 (UTC)


 * As an aside, my "CAPTCHA" was "yummyhymen".  It was the same a few days ago.   Who thinks them up? 2A00:23C6:2403:E900:48F:ADBB:1466:C011 (talk) 17:21, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you 200. I said the maths needed checking! Not my strong point. Which is probably why I don’t follow yours either, but I’m sure someone will be along to confirm or correct! Mine is based on 0.125 of L3.s17.10d which I calculated as 240+240+240+224+10=954 pence, of which 0.125 is 119 pence, which I make 108+11 or 9s.11d (which is already a penny off from my original so who knows, argh.) Thanks again for running math check, I appreciate it.70.67.193.176 (talk) 21:00, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Tillah is literally just "gold" according to James Abbott, probably inscribed and varied in purity. That of Bokhara was said to contain 4.5g, Khokand 3.5g. fiveby(zero) 01:04, 25 September 2020 (UTC)


 * 17s. 10d. is 214 pence.  Three pounds 17s. 10d. is 720 + 214 = 934 pence. 92.7.217.34 (talk) 10:14, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Straddling Science and Religion
In a recent issue of National Geographic there is an article entitled "They may look goofy, but ostriches are nobody's fool" and this goes on to state, and I quote "In our ragbag of stereotypes, ostriches have thus become the quintessential dim-witted animals. Even the Bible says they're dumb, and bad parents too." Where in the Bible is this discussed please. It also says that an Ostrich has eyes bigger than an elephant's. I have been with both in close proximity and they both have big eyes, (African and Asian elephants), is this claim true, are their eyes bigger?Thank you. 86.186.232.90 (talk) 15:46, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Job 39:13-18. -- Jayron 32 17:05, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * One source I found states that the diameter of an ostrich eye is about 5 cm. Another article says the diameter of an elephant eye is about 3.8 cm. While those aren't great sources (I wouldn't use them in articles) it's suggestive that the claim is true. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 18:07, 23 September 2020 (UTC)


 * See also for a concordance of passages mentioning ostriches.  There are various discussions on the Job 39 passage alluded to in National Geographic and already identified by Jayron.. --Amble (talk) 18:39, 23 September 2020 (UTC)


 * How do we know the Hebrew word traditionally translated as "ostrich" had that meaning in the Hebrew of the 6th century BCE? --Lambiam 19:26, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * This is an excellent question. I believe the word used in the Hebrew version is "renanim", but I know nothing of Hebrew etymology. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 20:38, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Because it describes a flightless bird that can outrun a horse? --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:15, 23 September 2020 (UTC)


 * "The corn is as high as an ostrich's eye" was considered by Hammerstein and then discarded, because ostriches' eyes often end up underground, while elephants' don't. You heard it here first, folks. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:43, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Technically, Curly McLain said "The corn is as high as a elephant's eye." <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 22:51, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah, so that's where the decline of the English language started. Good to know whom to blame. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  00:51, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Yup. Them Okies. Although Will Rogers said that when he moved from Oklahoma to California it had the effect of raising the collective IQ's of both states. <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 06:37, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Charles Dickens had one of his charcters say "The law is a ass" in the 19th century, a long way from Oklahoma... AnonMoos (talk) 08:37, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Dickens, schmickens! What would he know about English? Besides, it's important that we blame an American, in the interests of fairness and objectivity. :) --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:01, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Blame the Americans? Crikey! ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:04, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Anyway, what the Bible calls ostrich stupidity, in not taking good care of its offspring, may be another way of saying that ostriches have more of an "r" reproductive strategy than humans do... AnonMoos (talk) 08:43, 24 September 2020 (UTC)


 * The systematic study of Animal behavior was not as well developed in the 5th century BCE as it is today, so understanding the text from the perspective of the writers and their level of knowledge is probably more useful here than presuming the writer should have had all of the knowledge we have today. -- Jayron 32 11:34, 24 September 2020 (UTC)