Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 August 29

= August 29 =

bnei elohim
what is meaning of the phrase "bnei elohim" in Gen 6:2?..and why has it been translated as "sons of God" in some Hebrew Bibles, and "sons of rulers" in others?..the only other occurrences of this phrase at Job 1:6 and 2:1 seems to be referring to angels..there is clearly support for this interpretation in the Greek New Testament. why then should its presence at Gen 6:2 refer to human sons of Seth, in the Jewish religion? both these translations can't be correct, how is it possible that there can be two interpretations?.see Sons of God Gfigs (talk) 20:10, 29 August 2021 (UTC)


 * While wikt:אלוהים or (ʾélôhím) is grammatically the plural of the common noun wikt:אלוה or   (ʾélôah) meaning "god", it is also a usual term for God in the Hebrew Bible – see Elohim, already occurring as the third word of Genesis 1:1. The Hebrew script has no capital letters to distinguish this use from the plural use, and so the expression  is ambiguous: it is not possible to make out on orthographic or grammatical grounds whether the use of  is the plural of a word meaning "god" or the usual term we translate as "God". Translators who translate it as "rulers" apparently take it as the plural of the common noun; in that case the choice for this particular translation may have been inspired by the orthodox rejection of a plurality of gods. If the intention is "sons of God", there is no immediate reason to assume that this refers to the same entities in all contexts. Compare the diverse meanings of Son of Man.  --Lambiam 20:58, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
 * As Lambiam succinctly indicates, the word 'elohim' is capable of many interpretations: and it remains a stumbling stone on the way to understanding the deepest mysteries, if indeed they are capable of comprehension. See also Julius Wellhausen's Prolegomena on archive.org. (free registration required). Beware: there are many, many, many versions of the texts which have come down to us. None are definitive, none are 'original' and all are subject to various theological or scholarly interpretations. They used to burn people alive for disagreeing. MinorProphet (talk) 23:09, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
 * its true, religion continues to be a source of violence..and we are ruining the earth..I hope there are friendly ET's out there, who know more than us, can help us. if there is a God, I hope he cares about us, will eliminate suffering.. Gfigs (talk) 04:33, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * ,why was the plural elohim translated as "God" in Gen 1:1 ,instead of "Gods", "gods" or "rulers"? if that is how it was written? surely that is not an accurate translation? Gfigs (talk) 06:30, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * does this perhaps recall Laban's Teraphim? maybe that is where the answer also is, with Pluralis excellentiae? Gfigs (talk) 06:43, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * In this verse the term is the subject of the sentence, and the verb wikt:ברא‎ (bará) is in the past-tense masculine singular third-person form, so the subject is grammatically not plural. Compare the singular use of the formally plural but grammatically singular proper noun "United States", as used in "The United States is a highly developed country". --Lambiam 07:06, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * this grammar is going way beyond my understanding.. although, think I understand the example of US..thanks Gfigs (talk) 07:32, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * it is so complicated, and difficult to comprehend this idea of spirit life..hope theres someone out there in the universe, who knows the answers, can help us Gfigs (talk) 08:08, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * For someone who accepts the idea that supernatural entities are a creation of human culture, is is not harder to comprehend than the idea of the Marvel Universe. --Lambiam 12:36, 30 August 2021 (UTC)


 * The article Elohist is interesting. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:06, 30 August 2021 (UTC)


 * If you are interested in this "idea of spirit life", try The Story of My Heart, by Richard Jefferies who grew up near Swindon, Wiltshire, England, not far from where I used to live. The hill on the Wiltshire Downs which he used to climb is visible for miles around, and I have had many visions there. Be of good cheer: all will be revealed in time. MinorProphet (talk) 05:56, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, be of good cheer. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:14, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * thanks, will check these out..thanks also Lambiam, for explanation of this Hebrew phrase Gfigs (talk) 07:49, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

The classic commentator Rashi, who was a master of Biblbical Hebrew lexicography, cites Exodus 4:16 as a clear example of when this exact term is clearly talking about a human - when Moses is told that he will be "elohim" - a leader - over Aaron. In Gen 6:2, Rashi therefore translates it as princes/judges. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 10:29, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * interesting.. Gfigs (talk) 05:04, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * there is beauty and order..yet this world is a horrible place..natural disasters.. accidents..sickness..old age, and death..we do need a Messiah, someone sent by God who can fix these things..they said Jesus would do it..maybe another will come from outside this solar system, or in some other way?. yet, not easy to believe a God exists, at least that's how I feel Gfigs (talk) 06:19, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * David was ogling Bathsheba..that don't think is too good..if there was internet, probably even worse?.x Gfigs (talk) 14:46, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
 * can't understand who and why they wrote the Book of Enoch in Hebrew (300-100 BC)?.the authors clearly believed in evil spirits (demons)..although rejected by most Jews, it was accepted by Ethiopic Beta Israelites. it clearly is referring to Gen 6:1-4, and has even been quoted in the book of Jude..the Gospels have many references to demons..Jesus and his disciples who were Jewish obviously believed in Satan, and disobedient angels..not surprisingly he was rejected as an apostate by mainstream Judaism?.. Gfigs (talk) 08:40, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * there are many mythical Jewish beliefs, eg of serpent having intercourse with Eve, Lilith etc that relate to demons Gfigs (talk) 08:45, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * what about the Talmud?.it does also mention Satan..not a very nice person, would say. he did some terrible things to people I thought were innocent..seems like such a horrible God?.Gfigs (talk) 08:50, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Jesus also believed in Satan..eg the goats and the sheep..ruler of the air..dragon riding the harlot?..etc Gfigs (talk) 08:59, 5 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Jesus did not say that Satan is a godlike power who is at eternal war with good, who has an army of lesser evil minions, in dualistic opposition to God and his followers, etc. Our idea of Satan comes later. Temerarius (talk) 22:43, 6 September 2021 (UTC)