Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 February 13

= February 13 =

Separatist movements in Afghanistan?
Were there ever any serious separatist movements in Afghanistan? Also, if not, why not? Futurist110 (talk) 01:56, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * For contemporary movements see Afghan Civil War (1992-96), Afghan Civil War (1996-2001), Taliban, Northern Alliance-Abdul Muhsy (talk) 09:21, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * None of those actually involved separatist movements, though–did they? Futurist110 (talk) 09:33, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Apparently there's a Hazara nationalist movement which wants independence for Hazarajat, a region in central Afghanistan. --Antiquary (talk) 10:14, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Just how long did this desire actually exist on their part? Also, it would be rather hard to have an independent Hazarajat without also stripping Afghanistan of at least some of its northern territories, no? Futurist110 (talk) 02:26, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Pushtun vs. non-Pushtun has been an issue for many years, and during the second half of the 1990s it was one of the motivating issues of the Taliban vs. Northern Alliance civil war. But it seems that both sides wanted to dominate all of Afghanistan, rather than separating from it. AnonMoos (talk) 20:02, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * There was one group of the Maoist stream, Settam-e-Melli, which pressed heavily for the Marxism and the National Question line adapted to Afghan context, which would presumably have included right to self-determination. The Settamis were accused of separatism, although I don't know how accurate that label would have been. --Soman (talk) 00:34, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Do you have any relevant links in regards to this? Futurist110 (talk) 02:26, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * https://www.kas.de/wf/doc/kas_9674-544-2-30.pdf (Relating to the 1950s) "In Northern Afghanistan, Ittehad wa Taraqi, or ‘Unity and Progress’, a group that followed pan-Turkist ideas and mainly worked underground, also had representatives in the Wolesi Jirga and cooperated with Jabha-ye Mell.i29 [...] 29 Led by two brothers, the Faryab MP Muhammad Nazar Nawa and Abu-l-Khair Khairi, it is said to have laterpromoted the strategy of an armed uprising which would make it a predecessor of Settam-e Melli. The name is thesame one used by the constitutionalist Young Turks movement that emerged around 1870 in the Ottoman Empire.This group has only recently been mentioned in the literature."
 * "In August 1968, Settam-e Melli, or ‘[Against] National Oppression’,38 led by Taher Badakhshi, broke away [from PDPA] because it considered the ‘national question’ more important than the ‘class question’. Settam-e Melli mixed left-wing, nationalist rhetoric with a ‘Maoist’ approach, concentrating on rural mobilisation."
 * From https://www.platypus1917.org/wp-content/uploads/readings/hallidayfred_afghanrev1978_NLR10901.pdf "This called itself Settami Melli (NationalOppression) and was, as its name implied, composed almost exclusivelyof non-Pushtuns—Badakhshi came from a Tajik area in the North-East.It proclaimed itself Marxist-Leninist, and denounced both Khalq andParcham as agents of the Pushtun ruling class. The policies of Settami Melliwere pro-Chinese and anti-Pushtun. This meant first and foremost animplacable hostility to the concept of Pushtunistan: China was by thistime in close alliance with Pakistan, and saw Pushtunistan as an attemptby the Soviet Union to dismember its ally. Moreover, the non-Pushtunsin Settami Melli saw a ‘Greater Afghanistan’ as threatening to increaseeven further the predominance of the Pushtuns within the country. Thiscoincidence of positions led later to its logical conclusion—armedstruggle by the non-Pushtun peasantry against the Mohammadzai régimeand, implicity, its Soviet allies. Again the details are unclear, but it seemsthat after Daud’s accession to power and a general worsening in bothAfghan-Pakistani and Soviet-Chinese relations, a group of Settami Mellimilitants were given military training by Bhutto in Peshawar, capital ofthe North-West Frontier, and then sent back into Afghanistan. Therethey launched a series of attacks on police and army stations in the PanjSheri region of Badakhsan province in August 1975. After some clashes,most of the surviving Settami Melli militants were captured by theRussian-equipped army and taken to Kabul, where they were allsubsequently murdered in captivity by Daud. Taher Badakhshi and theremains of the organization went underground." (notably this narrative, on supposed Pakistani sponsorship of Settam and link to the Panjsheri uprising is criticized by other scholars) --Soman (talk) 14:07, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

North v south Yemen
Does anyone know (or can figure out--admittedly I've not looked into it that far myself) why North Yemen and South Yemen are designated as such, when it's clearly less of North v South and more of West v East? Aza24 (talk) 10:12, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Just conjecture because I can't find any stats, but it seems likely that the bulk of the population and economic activity is around Aden in the bottom left corner, which is indeed south of North Yemen. Alansplodge (talk) 11:22, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Maybe for vaguely the same reason that Lower Canada was farther north than Upper Canada? <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 12:20, 13 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Lower Canada was downstream of Upper Canada, and water flows downhill. That's usually what "upper" and "lower" meant in the old days (i.e. the "lower" was downstream or closer to the sea).  "Baja California" and "Alta California" may be an exception...
 * As for Yemen, Aden the capital of South Yemen was pretty much south of Sanaa the capital of North Yemen. AnonMoos (talk) 19:57, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Baja California is lower in elevation than Alta California. Alta California was much bigger than the U.S. state of California, and it was drained by the Colorado River, primarily, which flowed from north to south.  Today the Baja California Peninsula is divided into two states, the southern of which is called Baja California Sur, being Spanish for south.  Again, Baja (lower) in this context still comes from the same place that the lower in Lower Canada and Lower Egypt came from; being generally lower in elevation.  -- Jayron 32 14:16, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Now, neither North Yemen or South Yemen used these denominations officially I believe. However, the pre-independence liberation movement Front for the Liberation of Occupied South Yemen used the name 'South Yemen'. Here a 1871 work using the term 'South Yemen' --Soman (talk) 00:26, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I guess my question came from the Southern Separatist Movement, which seem to claim the same historical south as a region they want independent. Aza24 (talk) 02:45, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Note that there is hardly any population living in the easternmost provinces of South Yemen part of whose area is slightly further north than North Yemen. The bulk of the population lives in the western part, which is clearly south of North Yemen. Xuxl (talk) 13:38, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * It's also important to note that much of the lines along the north of both of those countries, especially during the 1970s and 1980s when the two countries existed, were lines on paper only. The actual borders with Saudi Arabia during the time period were ill-defined and the region of the Arabian Desert they crossed are very lightly populated.  As you can see From this map, in terms of population density, the areas of South Yemen that could be described as "north" of North Yemen are very lightly populated indeed.  These geographic oddities aren't confined to North/South Yemen either.  Virginia extends further west than West Virginia, near where I grew up are two high schools, Nashua High School North lies south of Nashua High School South, Suffolk County, Massachusetts (south folk) lies north of Norfolk County, Massachusetts (north folk).  Welcome to the imperfect world of humans. -- Jayron 32 14:09, 15 February 2021 (UTC)


 * There's a similar issue with Northern Ireland. It really ought to be called North-Eastern Ireland, since the most northerly part of the island of Ireland is not in Northern Ireland but in the Republic of Ireland. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:58, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
 * As long as the great majority of Northern Ireland's land area is to the north of the great majority of the Republic of Ireland's land area, few people would be bothered by such technical geographic anomalies. AnonMoos (talk) 00:11, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Allow me to introduce myself. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  10:42, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Recall
If a recall election for Gavin Newsom is placed on the ballot, would Newsom's campaign be allowed to take funds raised for his 2022 reelection campaign and re-allocate them towards defeating the recall election? 66.234.210.119 (talk) 10:37, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Deja vu! It could well depend on state election laws. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:18, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * It's an interesting question. I have no idea. I suspect even if it is permissible, it would be undesirable since contributions to Newsom's recall defense committee do not appear to be subject to contribution limits, whereas contributions to his reelection committee would presumably be subject to contribution limits. 69.174.144.79 (talk) 18:38, 13 February 2021 (UTC)