Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 January 25

= January 25 =

Margaret Adelaide Wilson
I'm struggling to find out much (or anything really) about the poet Margaret Adelaide Wilson, author of "The Road to Babylon" and "Gervais (Killed at the Dardenelles)" Could anyone help? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 00:14, 25 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Not much about her on the Web. A Margaret Adelaide Wilson from Portland, Oregon, was matriculated at Bryn Mawr College starting 1897, in the group "Greek and German". She held the Second Bryn Mawr Matriculation Scholarship for the Western States, 1897–1898. She is still mentioned in the 1904 program of Bryn Mawr, so she apparently took her time. I suspect that she is our poet.
 * The earliest writings I found are a poem, "The Dead Coyote", published in The Pacific Monthly, Volume 17, 1907. There is also a short story entitled "The End of Change", published in The Pacific Monthly, Volume 18 (also 1907).
 * The last sign of literary productivity under this name is the poem "The Road to Babylon", published in 1920. Later we find contributions by Margaret Adelaide Arnold, the latest in 1929. It is first-person non-fiction, set in Palm Springs; since she relates how she voted there, she must have been a resident.
 * She is mentioned as "Margaret Adelaide (Wilson) Arnold (1879–1969)" on this genealogy page. A clipping (apparently from: Max Binheim (1928), compiler and editor. Women of the West. Publishers Press) states: "Has contributed stories and verse to Scribner's, Atlantic, Yale Review, Poetry, Villager and other magazines." Find a Grave gives birth and death dates and places. --Lambiam 10:45, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I've known "The Road to Babylon" since I was about 9 or 10, and never known anything about the author. DuncanHill (talk) 21:12, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Parti conscience universelle
Hi everyone, there's an AfD discussion about Parti conscience universelle currently. Part of that discussion is about a source given in the French language WP page; but that source is to an offline newspaper (in La Presse (Canadian newspaper)). As it's offline, we can't see how in-depth the source is (or isn't) about the party, and so I wanted to ask whether there's any way of finding out what that source says about the party. If this is the wrong place to ask this, please let me know. Thanks!  Seagull123  Φ  15:24, 25 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Hi Seagull123, you might try WP:RX, the resource exchange - plenty of people with different database accesses hang out there and you might be able to obtain a copy of the source article that way if you can provide the date and headline. (I've checked my own proquest but it doesn't include La Presse, sorry.) 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:32, 25 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for pointing that out, just left a request there .  Seagull123  Φ  22:44, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Tolkien etymological reference
Hi, in his Guide to the Names in The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien elaborates on the origin of the word smials: Smials. A word peculiar to hobbits (not Common Speech), meaning 'burrow'; leave unchanged. It is a form that [...] -- But what exactly does "leave unchanged" mean / refer to here exactly?--Hildeoc (talk) 19:35, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Tolkien wrote that guide to help folks translating LotR into other languages. "Leave unchanged" simply meant that smials should be left as is, unlike terms that translators could reproduce the underlying meanings of in the target languages. Deor (talk) 20:44, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see, thank you so much! Best wishes--Hildeoc (talk) 21:00, 25 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Tolkien provided a lot of guidance to translators of the "Lord of the Rings" -- but only to those translating it into Germanic languages (Dutch, German, Scandinavian). Translators to other languages were mostly out of luck... AnonMoos (talk) 15:03, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Territorial secessions that occurred as a result of a revolution and/or regime change?
Which cases have there been of territorial secessions occurring as a result of a revolution and/or regime change? So far, I could think of:


 * Outer Mongolia's (later known just as Mongolia) secession from China after the Xinhai Revolution
 * The secession of the non-German and non-Magyar parts of Austria-Hungary in 1918 (which is when the House of Habsburg-Lorraine was overthrown in Austria-Hungary)
 * The secession of both Alsace-Lorraine and the non-German parts of Germany during the German Revolution (which is when the House of Hohenzollern was overthrown in Germany)
 * The secession of Poland, the Baltic countries (specifically Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia), Finland, and Bessarabia (which ultimately ended up being annexed by Romania) from Russia after the February Revolution and October Revolution both occurred there
 * The secession of the various ex-USSR countries from the Soviet Union when Communism there was on the verge of ending
 * The secession of the non-Serb parts of Yugoslavia after the end of Communism there
 * Slovakia's secession from Czechoslovakia during the Velvet Divorce (which occurred just several years after the end of Communism in Czechoslovakia)
 * East Timor's secession from Indonesia after the Indonesian Revolution of 1998
 * The secession of both Crimea and the Donbass Republics (specifically the Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic) from Ukraine after the Maidan Revolution there in 2014 (which decisively pushed Ukraine in a pro-Western direction, something that these pro-Russian regions of Ukraine disapproved of)

Anyway, though, which additional cases of this have there been? Futurist110 (talk) 20:59, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * For the record, unsuccessful territorial secessions don't actually count for this. So, for instance, the ISIS Caliphate, which only lasted for several years before thankfully being completely defeated, destroyed, and conquered. Futurist110 (talk) 21:09, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * By the way the secession of the former USSR Republics occurred after the failure of the August 1991 attempted coup against Mikhail Gorbachev. Except for the three Baltic Republics, which had already proclaimed their independence some months earlier. So they were the result of an attempted regime change. Xuxl (talk) 21:22, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The regime change became more actual than attempted once Yeltsin took Russia outside of the Soviet Union, thus having be nothing left of the Soviet Union for all practical intents and purposes. Futurist110 (talk) 21:56, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The secession of the southern US states after Lincoln's election. --Amble (talk) 21:40, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Touche! Anyway, Yeah, I guess that this secession attempt would have qualified for this if it would have actually been successful. Futurist110 (talk) 21:56, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * And if a normal election qualified as a regime change. --142.112.149.107 (talk) 08:15, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Yep–but only if it would have actually resulted in a change in the composition of a country's government! Futurist110 (talk) 05:18, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Brainstorming: Ceuta left Portugal for Spain after the end of the Iberian Union.
 * Not really a revolution, though–is it? Was the government in Portugal after the end of the Iberian Union different from the one beforehand? If so, then at least it would count as regime change.


 * The Dominion of Ireland indirectly after the Easter Rebellion.
 * But Britain itself didn't actually experience a revolution or regime change!


 * The independence of Iceland after the Allied invasion.
 * Technically speaking, though, Denmark didn't experience regime change per se as a result of the Nazi German occupation since the Danish government was allowed to remain in place and even to continue performing various tasks, no?


 * Most of the independences of the American republics during the Spanish War of Independence.
 * Good example! Futurist110 (talk) 20:19, 30 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The independence of Brazil after the Peninsular War.
 * Good example! Futurist110 (talk) 20:19, 30 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Independence of Haiti during the French revolution.
 * Good example! Futurist110 (talk) 20:19, 30 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The independences of the Portuguese colonies after the Carnation Revolution.
 * Good example! Futurist110 (talk) 20:19, 30 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Panama?
 * Did it actually achieve its independence after a revolution?


 * Bangla Desh?
 * Yep, Pakistan appears to have experienced a revolution of sorts in 1968-1969: 1968 movement in Pakistan. Futurist110 (talk) 20:19, 30 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Free Territory of Trieste.
 * But it didn't actually last!


 * Ezo Republic.
 * It didn't actually last, though!


 * The de-facto secession of Taiwan/Mainland China after the civil war.
 * Good example–though to be fair, it was mainland China's Kuomintang government that fled to Taiwan after losing the Chinese mainland to Mao Zedong's Communists!


 * Independence of Algeria after May 1968. --Error (talk) 13:38, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Algeria actually became independent in 1962, though–so, six years before the events of May 1968! France did change republics in 1958 (so, four years before Algerian independence) from the French Fourth Republic to the French Fifth Republic, but I'm unsure that this can actually be considered either a revolution or a regime change. Futurist110 (talk) 20:19, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

J. Paul Getty at Oxford
Our article about J. Paul Getty says "He obtained degrees in economics and political science from Oxford in June 1913". The reference used to support this (published by the J. Paul Getty Museum) says he "received his diploma in political science and economics at Oxford in June 1913". It seems to me to be very unlikely indeed that he would have taken two degrees in the 6 months or so he was at Oxford. So what qualification or qualifications did he take? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:32, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * “a non-collegiate diploma” (singular confirmed) per this but even on the pages before and after, the term is not explained and googling it is just confusing me. I know it at least means not from Magdalen, where he roomed, but what degree is it? It’s not in the Oxford Glossary or Degrees of the University of Oxford. Perhaps you know yourself, or another editor here can help? The source does say he passed exams to obtain it. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 02:47, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I have never heard of one! Interestingly, pretty much the only uses of '"non-collegiate diploma" + Oxford' that google throws up are about Getty, and they all, including the Russell Miller book The House of Getty you linked, seem to get it from Getty's autobiography As I See It. DuncanHill (talk) 03:03, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
 * In other words they all refer back to a WP:PRIMARY source, in which case we could say that he "claimed" he was awarded a degree, if that doesn't sound too loaded. I would regard the Museum as rather more objective since they are quite likely to possess the actual diploma. I suggest you take this to the article talk page where there might be more knowledgeable editors.--Shantavira|feed me 09:20, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
 * On its website, the University of Oxford states, "each diploma is associated with a specific college", so the term has become somewhat mysterious. In the book The House of Getty we also read that Paul had been accepted as a "non-collegiate student", and presumably a "non-collegiate diploma" is a diploma awarded to a non-collegiate student. The web pages of St Catz have references to "non-collegiate students", a historical concept, such as revealing that in 1852 a "Royal Commission proposes the creation of a category of Non-Collegiate Students", in 1884 the "Delegacy for Unattached Students [was] renamed as Delegacy for Non-Collegiate Students", and that in 1932 the "Delegacy for Non-Collegiate Students [was] renamed St Catherine's Society". Then, in 1956, St Catherine's Society was turned into a fully residential college,, completely putting an end to the anomalous "non-collegiate" category.  --Lambiam 13:41, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
 * A parallel development at Cambridge resulted in Fitzwilliam College, Cambridge. --ColinFine (talk) 14:18, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
 * As to the plurality of the degrees, The J. Paul Getty Museum has: "[J. Paul Getty] received his diploma in political science and economics at Oxford University in June 1913." This is not an entirely independent source. We can find the same info, called "a diploma in politics and economics", in The Capstone Encyclopaedia of Business, except that they write "1914", not compatible with the autobiographically chronicled period from (sometime after) April 1912 to July 1913. --Lambiam 14:23, 26 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I think a degree is impossible - you can't graduate until at least 9 terms after matric. There may be some confusion between the American usage of "diploma" to mean the piece of paper, and the British use for a particular academic award. I suspect, and it is only a suspicion at this stage, that he may have been given some sort of "This chap has reached the required standard in the xyz examinations" certificate but not an actual degree. In many of the University regulations "college" is taken to mean a college, society, permanent private hall, or private hall, students at the last three being strictly-speaking non-collegiate students. DuncanHill (talk) 15:33, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I think that's almost certainly the case, that the award conferred wasn't equal to the modern bachelor's degree. I seem to recall that in Canada they sometimes use "diploma" to refer to two-year programs; what we call an associate's degree in the U.S. And today there are also certificate programs that can be a single year or possibly less. I strongly suspect that "diploma" here meant what we would now mean by "certificate". I think our article should probably not say "degree" and should also not say "graduated" since that implies a degree. I'd prefer not to say "diploma" since it's clearly a dated usage, though I think an explanatory footnote would clear up any potential confusion. 69.174.144.79 (talk) 03:41, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I changed the article to read "a diploma in economics and political science" to match what the source says. Unless and until we get something more definitive I think that is as much as we can say in the article. DuncanHill (talk) 12:11, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
 * An explanatory footnote requires a reliable source supporting whatever serves as an appropriate elucidation, free of syn, in this particular case. --Lambiam 12:44, 27 January 2021 (UTC)