Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 January 4

= January 4 =

Klick
I have memories of "klicks" being used as synonym for kilometres or kph in a classic science fiction novel, before (to me) any other context. Any ideas? OED was no help. Doug butler (talk) 01:53, 4 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I think it originated as military slang (see Wiktionary) and from there was borrowed into some military-themed SF... -- AnonMoos (talk) 01:59, 4 January 2021 (UTC)


 * P.S. A few quick Google searches strongly suggest that Ben Bova, Joe Haldeman and Robert Heinlein all used "klicks" (but I didn't turn up results for Jerry Pournelle).... AnonMoos (talk) 02:04, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Is there slang for British/US measuring system unit(s)? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:30, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Like for yards/miles? Not that I know of. As to speed, the best slang dealing with speed I know of is that someone driving 120 mph is "doing a buck twenty" (cf. $1.20). I've not heard the same phrasing with other speeds, and it sounds awkward to my ear with anything less than 110 mph. 69.174.144.79 (talk) 04:27, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * During the 70s and 80s when there was a US national speed limit of 55 miles per hour, someone obeying the law was said to be "doing the double-nickel". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:07, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * In the UK (and likely elsewhere) one might refer to driving (usually a car or motorbike) at 100mph as "doing a ton." "A/the ton" is also informally applied to scores or counts of 100 in other contexts.{The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.56.237 (talk) 17:04, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * As in the hit skiffle song "In the Summertime": "Scoot along the lane, do a ton or a ton and twenty-five." —Tamfang (talk) 02:47, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * See also Ton-up Boys. Alansplodge (talk) 16:26, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary says it was originally US military slang used in the Vietnam War. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:16, 4 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Which OED version "was no help"? The OED Online (available to paying users or members of paying instutitions, such as my public library here) defines klick (also click, klik)  as "Slang. (Originally U.S. Army.) A kilometre. Also plural (Australian), elliptical for 'kilometres per hour'."  It says the etymology is unknown but the word was "Originally used amongst American servicemen during the Vietnam War."  Usage examples are cited from 1967 (when it entered the Dictionary of American Slang) to 1988. --174.95.161.129 (talk) 09:21, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * He means that it was no help in identifying the particular use in a science fiction novel that he is trying to remember. --Viennese Waltz 11:26, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Starship Troopers, 1959? Mitch Ames (talk) 11:36, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * In this previous ref-desk thread about the word klicks (there are several such threads), Tamfang cited The Forever War (1974) as an sf novel in which the word is used. Deor (talk) 17:02, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The "Troopers" "copy" I found is using miles, with that noone who'd seem enthusiastic. "It was an endless day" "an impossible decision" "we're wasting our time" "stopping every half mile to listen for frying bacon". --Askedonty (talk) 17:15, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, no uses of "klick" or variants as a noun show up, but merely two uses of the verb "click". --Lambiam 10:06, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * A good link, thanks Deor. The Forever War could be it. Doug butler (talk) 00:57, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Ethnic groups that achieved ethnogenesis largely or completely as a result of Communist rule?
Which ethnic groups achieved ethnogenesis largely or completely as a result of Communist rule? So far, I could think of:


 * Moldovans
 * Uyghurs
 * Possibly some or all of the Central Asian peoples (there was already a separate Muslim identity among them relative to the Eastern Orthodox Eastern Slavs even before Communism, but it's possible that they would not have identified en masse specifically as Kazakh, Uzbek, Kyrgyz, Tajik, Turkmen, et cetera as opposed to Central Asian in general if it wasn't for decades of Communist rule.)
 * Possibly Belarusians
 * Macedonians
 * Montenegrins

Anyway, though, which additional ethnic groups would actually qualify for this? Futurist110 (talk) 21:32, 4 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I'd take issue with the Uyghurs on your list. They have been a largely cohesive and identifiable people group for at over a millenium; indeed they are going in the opposite direction due to enforced cultural assimilation with the Han Chinese largely due to the rule of the PRC.  The Uyghur Khaganate dates from the 8th century.  -- Jayron 32 13:58, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * AFAIK, though, the 8th century Uyghurs aren't the same Uyghurs that exist today. Futurist110 (talk) 19:31, 5 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Some Bulgarians and Greeks have elaborate conspiracy theories about how the separate Macedonian ethnolinguistic identity was contrived out of almost nothing for political purposes in the aftermath of WW2 by the Tito regime (and sold to the English-speaking world with the help of Horace Lunt)... AnonMoos (talk) 14:25, 5 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Interesting. Well, it certainly made sense to discourage Bulgarian territorial claims on Yugoslav territory! Futurist110 (talk) 19:31, 5 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Just to note that the natural evolution of ethnic groups (ethnogenesis), if it has happened at any point in history, can happen at any point in history, including the current times, and the spontaneous creation of new ethnic groups is going on, and as such, it is entirely possible for them to have arisen in the past century or so. It isn't necessary for some evil mastermind to have created them for his own nefarious purposes; they can just "happen" through organic and natural social processes, and that applies to Macedonian people as well.  -- Jayron 32 14:51, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Should seem easy enough to Google public domain Encyclopedia Britannicas and see what they say under Macedonia. I find it funny that a country was delayed from EU etc for quarter century cause fruitless negotiations when the ingenious mutually-crushing defeat breakthrough turned out to be "call north Macedonia North Macedonia". If only all intractable disputes were this easy. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:44, 5 January 2021 (UTC)


 * During the inter-war Kingdom of Yugoslavia, they were inhabitants of the Vardar Banovina and subjected to heavy pressures to Serbianize. Probably in 1945, many of them would have considered themselves geographically Macedonian, linguistically Bulgarian (or anyway a lot closer to Bulgarian than Serbian), and nationally Yugoslav, and would not have seen much contradiction in this.  It was definitely intervention by Tito's post-war Yugoslav government which built up a distinctively Macedonian literary language which had barely existed before (endorsed in the Western world by noted Old Church Slavonic scholar Horace Lunt), though whether this process was "natural" or "artificial" could be debated at great length (and has been, many times).  Either way, the strident nationalism of the 1990s seemed to contain a certain amount of "overcompensation" for the relatively recent origin of their identity. AnonMoos (talk) 19:22, 5 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Yep, it was pretty interesting to see North Macedonia try claiming Alexander the Great as one of their own. Futurist110 (talk) 19:33, 5 January 2021 (UTC)


 * What did they consider themselves before Yugoslavia? Or what would they be if suddenly no empire wanted them for some reason (not a leading question, I have no idea) I note that a dialect with its own country is a language but not always, Canadian is not a language. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:54, 5 January 2021 (UTC)


 * In the pre-WW1 era, ordinary people in the area defined themselves by religion as much or more than by language or ethnicity (see Patriarchate of Karlovci, Bulgarian Exarchate, Greek Patriarchate of Constantinople etc). Look at the "aftermath" section and following sections of the Ilinden Uprising article to see the beginnings of modern nationalism... AnonMoos (talk) 20:08, 5 January 2021 (UTC)