Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 July 3

= July 3 =

Sudbury Augustinian Priory?
I have been looking at articles about Sudbury, Suffolk and came across the thinnest stub article ever: Sudbury Augustinian Priory. I have dashed off a quick article about Sudbury Priory, which was Dominican and improved the article Sudbury Benedictine Priory, but can't find anything about the Augustinians in Sudbury. Is it a mistake? Alansplodge (talk) 14:57, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
 * It seems the priory was added from the start (with a red link?) to the older List of monastic houses in Suffolk, which now has some more solid sources (not for this one, but seems a good place to start). Here an entry is listed as "Augustine Priory (site of), Friars Street (Dominican Friary) (Med)" and only as a dominican friary in the details. Personuser (talk) 15:49, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Sounds as though someone has their friars confused. Thanks. I have nominated for speedy deletion. Alansplodge (talk) 10:57, 4 July 2021 (UTC)


 * But why is it referred to as "[remains of] an Augustine Priory"? It seems there may have been both a Dominican or Benedictine and an Augustine Priory. Did someone confuse sites instead of friars? --Lambiam 12:22, 4 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Good find Lambiam. White's Description of Sudbury 1841 quotes as a source, Antient funeral monuments, of Great-Britain, Ireland, and the islands adjacent by John Weever, which says:
 * And I find in the catalogue of religious houẝes, collectded by Speed, that this Simon, together with one John Chartsey, founded alẝo the priory of Augustine fryars in this town; howẝoever I have a manuẝcript tells me, that one Baldwin de Shipling, or Simperling, and Chabill his wife, are the ẝole founders who lie buried in the chancel of the priory church.
 * However, The Victoria History of the County of Suffolk has the same Baldwin de Shipling founding the Dominican priory, curiously also using Weever as source; but the VCH version contains such a wealth of detail that it seems probable that it is Weever (or perhaps Speed before him) who has his friars muddled.
 * A short history of the borough of Sudbury also has much detail about the Dominicans but doesn't mention the Augustinians. English Heritage go with the Dominicans too. Alansplodge (talk) 15:19, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Can we definitively exclude the possibility that there were two distinct priories, neither of which is still extant, one founded by Simon Sudbury, and one founded by Baldwin de Shipling/ and his wife Chabill (some sources name her Mabille or Mabel), and that historians (perhaps Weever) somehow conflated these priories? --Lambiam 17:17, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
 * If I got the rigth source and read it right, Speed mentions "Simon Sudbiry" as founder of St Bartholemew, belonging to "blacke monks" (Benedectines) or "Friers Preachers" (Dominicans). It's also the only priory he mentions, so he is probably conflating the two. Personuser (talk) 19:25, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Well done Personuser, I tried looking for that earlier but couldn't find the right volume. Well, Speed does seem to have conflated the two priories. St Bartholenew's Benedictine priory was founded in 1115, more than 200 years before Simon Sudbury's time.
 * Simon Sudbury was actually the founder of Sudbury College in the town, a religious community for "secular canons" - see College (Catholic canon law) - we don't have an article, but you can read about it here. Perhaps Weever was confusing the college with the priory? He seems to be the only one talking about Augustinians. Alansplodge (talk) 21:22, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Since Speed does not mention or imply the Order of Saint Augustine, while Weever gives Speed as his source for the priory of Augustine fryars, it seems that Weever misidentified the religious order implied by Speed. (It is interesting that Speed did not know whether the priory founded by Simon Sudbury and John de Chertsey/Chartsey was Benedictine or Dominican. Was he confusing Black Friars and Black Monks, or the two priories in Sudbury?) As far as I can tell, the Augustinian claim originated with Weever and leaves its imprint in present-day descriptions, as in the monument record SUY 005. Now the question remains what the respective roles were of archbishop Simon Theobald alias Sudbury cum John de Chertsey versus Baldwin de Shipling and wife. I assume each played some role in the founding. --Lambiam 11:13, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I think Weever must have been confusing the priory with the college, which was founded in 1374 by Simon and his brother John de Chertsey. All the later sources give the foundation date of the Dominican priory as 1272, so Simon can't possibly have been involved - he wasn't born until 1316. He did make a grant of land to the priory at a nearby spring in 1380, so there's another possible point of confusion, but no mention of his brother in that affair. Alansplodge (talk) 14:54, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * It seems that Speed was confused as well. If the religious house/college on his list was Sudbury College, which was established to accommodate (according to Hodson & Denne) secular canons, the assignment to Blacke Monks Weſtm,or Friers Preachers does not make sense. --Lambiam 17:30, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Well yes. Confusion all round. Sudbury can't have founded either priory because that happened either one or two centuries before his time. He DID found a religious community for secular canons which was basically a hostel for six priests working in the parish, which was large enough to support two churches. Alansplodge (talk) 18:50, 5 July 2021 (UTC)