Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 June 20

= June 20 =

Unlucky third ?
It's first time I came across 2 refs about superstition, coincidentally both from South Asian Muslim communities. One academic review of mid twentieth century (social reform) fiction from South India and second a 2009 news from Pakistan in both cases 'third child' has been reported to be unlucky one.

To best of my knowledge if any such superstition exists then unlikely to have any religious connection or mainstream prevalence and I am not sure superstition across time gap and region and how prevalent that one is. Just want to find out any such other instances/ refs out there from subaltern South Asia or Iran etc.?

Thanks

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias are for expanding information and knowledge&#39; (talk) 10:02, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
 * This mentions probably the same and related superstitions in 1902, there's also something on this page. Hope this helps. Personuser (talk) 10:43, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

While posting query I was not at all sure such superstition existed ever but, refs suggested by you seem to be almost to the point, it seems some North Indian Hindu communities used to have such beliefs and likely to have been continued by some converted Muslim communities to an extent. So to work on Superstition related articles is a worthwhile thing after all. Many thanks, and warm regards &#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias are for expanding information and knowledge&#39; (talk) 14:38, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Popular sayings with ambiguous interpretations
Some time ago I was wondering if some popular sayings/maxims could have different or even opposite interpretations depending on the recipient and actually perform their function or became popular because of and not in spite of this. A recent question renewed my interest. I heard of works like the Divine Comedy or even cartoons like The Simpson and similar having more or less intentionally different, but mostly step-wise, levels of interpretation, which seems commonly accepted. Intentionally hidden messages also have a long history. What would make this examples different is the lack of planning and authorship in the modern sense, which seems a relatively new invention, as well as the lack of continuity between different interpretations, possibly with social implications. I was wondering if something similar has a name or was subject to study, I would also welcome single examples, but that seems likely to quickly derail the discussion outside of what could be useful for WP. Personuser (talk) 14:17, 20 June 2021 (UTC)


 * A term I read about recently, but which does not have a wiki article, is the French sens, described in this Ask Historians post like this: "Written [premodern] works could also be understood in a huge variety of ways, of which literal truth was only one approach. Symbolic, allegorical, and analogical meanings were also crucial. A great illustration of this is the French Ovide Moralisé (late 13th or early 14th century CE), a verse translation of Ovid’s Metamorphoses that follows each story with a whole array of potential sens (“meanings/significations”) that the tale might have. These can include euhemerized history, Old and/or New Testament allegory, contemporary political commentary, and broader moral reflections. Different sens might be in direct contradiction; the god Apollo, in the same story, could be read as the Devil or Jesus. The point was not to highlight the “correct” interpretation, but rather to present a range of possibilities for understanding Ovid and incorporating his writings into a contemporary worldview." This is more for entire stories than simple sayings, but you did ask for something similar. The AskHistorians post mentions the scholar Michelle Karnes, for further reading.70.67.193.176 (talk) 14:31, 20 June 2021 (UTC)


 * That was definitively on topic or, in the worst case, could help to better define it. Thanks. Personuser (talk) 16:12, 20 June 2021 (UTC)


 * There was an essay in the Paris Review ('s blog) that you would really like. The writer took a few Aesops and found that over time, the writers would have the same story and a very different explanation for what it means. It was pretty striking. Maybe you can google it up better than I. Temerarius (talk) 18:41, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Probably this. Thanks and please correct me if I guessed wrong. Fables are surely interesting in a lot of ways, specially the multiple millenia old ones. Personuser (talk) 19:45, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually no, that wasn't it. The other one was a lot better and more applicable to your question. Temerarius (talk) 19:40, 21 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The exception proves the rule is an English saying whose meaning is taken rather differently by different people, as expanded in our article. --ColinFine (talk) 13:11, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

East-West dichotomy
I want to ask about East-West dichotomy relating to modern world. The preliminary cause is connected to cultural or religious difference. The church is divided into two branches such as Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church in the 12th century. Similarly, the Oriental Orthodox Church was also excommunicated prior in 451 during Council of Chalcedon. Which country prognosticated the excommunication of Oriental Orthodox Church, and what motives did initiate this? I think this is precursor of the current dichotomy of East and Western countries. The Supermind (talk) 14:41, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
 * It goes back to even earlier times. Here is a book chapter on the East-West dichotomy in Herodotus and Tacitus: --Amble (talk) 17:11, 20 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The_Supermind -- You're only referring to east-west dichotomies within Christianity, but that's not what many people think of as the strongest east vs. west contrast. The Western Europe vs. Eastern Europe opposition has been weaker or stronger in different centuries, while the opposition between European and Asian civilizations has always existed since roughly 500 BC.  Also, in your discussion of Christianity, you left out the Nestorians, who hold views opposite to the Monophysites (or Miaphysites, as they prefer to be called nowadays), but were also condemned by centralized Byzantine orthodoxy.  During some parts of the middle ages, the Oriental Orthodox / Monophysites / Miaphysites were located mainly in countries on the Mediterranean coast (and in Armenia), while Nestorians were boldly venturing far east into Central Asia, and as far as China. AnonMoos (talk) 22:25, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Who was Clarita Vidal's first husband?
Our article on Clarita Vidal says her first husband was a Lord Seymour, and one of the sources used calls him the nephew of Admiral Seymour. It's not clear which Admiral Seymour is meant. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 14:41, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I would not take her claims too seriously (as they were obviously scored to make her origin appear more exotic and associate her with the higher society). Ghirla-трёп- 09:50, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
 * This 1919 source makes it clear that these claims were not given too much weight even during her lifetime: "The Countess Mazzuchi (known as the Angel of the Marne) claims that she was born at Singapore 30 years ago and that she is the daughter of a Spanish ambassador and an English woman. She also states that she is a niece of Cardinal Vaughan, and that her first husband was Lord Seymour, a nephew of Admiral Seymour". I can find no independent confirmation for any of these claims. Ghirla-трёп- 09:54, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Photograph of Thomas Wright (Astronomer)
Please note you have the incorrect image of Thomas Wright (Astomoner) in his article. There are two images of Thomas Wright. One in Wikimedia that is confirmed by the British Museum, and the second image in Wikipedia is that of Thomas Wright (Clockmaker) who Thomas Wright (Astronomer) worked with him in London. An easy mistake to make.

Secondly, this page states that he built an observatory at Byers Green to observe stars. Again this is not correct. He died before the observatory was built. This is why it is called a folly.

I would and the people of Weardale would appreciate your valued assistance in making the appropriate amendments.

Yours respectfully

Christopher Jameson MCMI, Cert Ed, IOSH — Preceding unsigned comment added by Christopher jameson (talk • contribs) 16:41, 20 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Hi Christopher Jameson, yes, there will be a way to attempt this correction. I'm sorry to give you a "this is not the right place to ask" reply, but this message board is meant to help with library-type research (answering questions about knowledge) rather than answering questions about how Wikipedia works and how to work with Wikipedia. So, would you mind heading over to Teahouse and copying your question there? The volunteers there will be able to explain how to correct the descriptions of the images. Thank you kindly for bringing it to attention. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:54, 20 June 2021 (UTC)