Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 March 16

= March 16 =

Birth registration question
Which non-white-majority countries other than both Japan and the various Latin American countries had widespread birth registration relatively early on–at least in comparison to most of the developing world? Futurist110 (talk) 00:00, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * "Non-white" is probably not the right term to use. Xuxl (talk) 13:31, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Why not? After all, people here know what the term "white people" means, don't they? Futurist110 (talk) 19:04, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily - the interpretation of who is "white" and who is not (as well as how much it matters) varies markedly from country to to country and culture to culture (those two not being congruent). For example, I recently learned that some people in the USA apparently do not consider Spanish people in Spain (not people in the Americas of Spanish descent) to be "white", something that as a European makes my jaw drop. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.221.80.5 (talk) 22:06, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * AFAIK, Spaniards are considered white Hispanics here in the U.S. Futurist110 (talk) 01:13, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Perhaps on official documents and by a majority, but I instanced this because I recently encountered a white US person describing European Spanish people (in Spain, not in the USA) as "not white". {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.221.80.5 (talk) 08:40, 17 March 2021 (UTC)


 * "White" is a property of the people, not the country; if you mean "countries in which white people are not the majority", or something else, please clarify. Xnft (talk) 20:02, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * What about writing "non-white-majority countries" here instead? Futurist110 (talk) 21:04, 16 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Not sure what time-frame you have in mind for "early on", but some Western countries were actually not all that advanced with respect to birth registration. Before 1837, England had no central/national registry, and birth information was mostly recorded in the baptismal record books of local churches all across the country.  In the United States, it was and still is a matter for each separate state to determine... AnonMoos (talk) 23:08, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * 1837 for a national birth registry is still very early, though. And baptismal records, if done during one's infancy, could be viewed as a type of proxy birth registration, I suppose. And various European countries, including England, had widespread baptismal records for a long time. Futurist110 (talk) 02:53, 17 March 2021 (UTC)


 * See the list of registers available at the The National Archives (United Kingdom) here. Nanonic (talk) 03:48, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Outdated Countries
Were there any countries in history specifically the 1700's that were technologically and culturally behind other countries? For example a country still using plate armor and the feudal system during the Napoleonic era? -- Preceding unsigned comment added by Gandalf the Groovy (talk o  contribs) 16:07, 16 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Japan had more or less forbidden firearms at that point. They used their own type of armor (not consisting of solid sheets of metal).  Any country in Europe of significant size which fell far behind other countries was likely to be conquered... AnonMoos (talk) 16:30, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * In the late 16th and early 17th centuries - the Sengoku period - the Japanese did develop plate armour which was effectively bullet-proof, but returned to earlier styles during the long peace of the Edo period. See Japanese armour. Alansplodge (talk) 17:25, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * culturally ahead and behind are relative terms, so basically it depends on what is your definition of culturally ahead ? and behind ? Scale of renaissance is some thing better for comparison but on many other counts definition of culturally ahead ? and behind ? very much likely open to many a questions. Bookku (talk) 16:52, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Another country that resisted Westernisation until fairly late, but remained free from colonisation was Thailand. Alansplodge (talk) 17:25, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * France conquered Alsace (except for some towns) from the Habsburg junior line (Further Austria) in 1639. Habsburgs sold Sundgau to France in 1646 and Alsace (except for some towns) became part of France by the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648 on condition that feudal rights and customs were preserved. Feudal rights were extinguished in 1789 during the French Revolution (on the cusp of the Napoleonic era). Sleigh (talk) 17:09, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Serfdom in Russia was not abolished until 1861 (not sure if this is more "outdated" than slavery in the USA or British West Indies though). Alansplodge (talk) 17:32, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

In terms of hygiene, Western Europe was far, far behind much of North-east Asia. DOR (HK) (talk) 21:31, 16 March 2021 (UTC)


 * "For example a country still using plate armor and the feudal system during the Napoleonic era?" That would include large areas of Europe according to our article on feudalism:


 * "Vestiges of the feudal system hung on in France until the French Revolution of the 1790s, and the system lingered on in parts of Central and Eastern Europe as late as the 1850s. Slavery in Romania was abolished in 1856. Russia finally abolished serfdom in 1861. "
 * The Patroon system of landholders with manorial rights was preserved in New York at least until the death of landowner Stephen Van Rensselaer in 1839. Due to the Anti-Rent War (1839-1845) and the demands of their tenants for land reform, his heirs were forced to break up the manorial estate. "The New York Constitution of 1846 added provisions for tenants' rights, abolishing feudal tenures and outlawing leases lasting longer than twelve years." This is considered the end of feudalism in the United States.
 * The Seigneurial system of New France, a semi-feudal system of land tenure, was preserved in Canada until 1854. "The manorial system was formally abolished through the passage of the Feudal Abolition Act 1854 by the Legislative Assembly of the Province of Canada, which received royal assent on 18 December 1854. " Manorial lords continued to receive payment in compensation until 1970.
 * The Tokugawa shogunate in Japan maintained the feudal "bakuhan system" until its collapse in 1868. The abolition of the title of daimyō in 1869, and the Abolition of the han system by 1871 largely abolished traditional hereditary fiefdoms in favor of a centralized state. The Meiji oligarchy wanted a complete reformation of Japanese society, and largely removed many elements associated with the previous regime.
 * Feudal privileges of the Nakharar class of the Armenian nobility survived to the 20th century, but were largely abolished by the Bolsheviks in the 1910s and 1920s.
 * The system of Zamindars (hereditary feudal rulers) was preserved in South Asia until the land reforms of the 1950s. "The system was abolished during land reforms in East Pakistan (Bangladesh) in 1950, India in 1951 and West Pakistan in 1959. Vestiges of Feudalism in Pakistan survive to the 21st century, since "five per cent of agricultural households in Pakistan own nearly two thirds of Pakistan's farmland". These are large landowners, while their land is cultivated by "peasants or tenants who live at subsistence level". " The data dates to 2015, but I doubt anything has changed in the last 6 years.
 * According to the Serfdom in Tibet controversy, the semi-independent Tibet (1912–1951) was a feudal society until its annexation to China in 1951. The status of Tibetan peasants as serfs or slaves is still disputed by various authorities. "Israel Epstein wrote that prior to the Communist takeover, poverty in Tibet was so severe that in some of the worst cases peasants had to hand over children to the manor as household slaves or nangzan, because they were too poor to raise them. On the other hand, Laird asserted that in the 1940s Tibetan peasants were well off and immune to famine, whereas starvation was common in China. According to other sources, the so-called "slaves" were domestic servants (nangtsen) and managers of estates in reality. " A source from 1992 claims that the slaves in Tibet were not harshly treated, but that there was still a flow or runaway slaves which headed towards "Sikkim and British India."
 * The system of land tenure in Scotland remained feudal in nature until the end of the 20th century. The Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc. (Scotland) Act 2000 abolished feudal land tenure, and turned the vassals of an estate to new land owners. The new legislation was enacted in May 2000, and took effect in November 2004. This is considered the end of feudalism in Scotland.
 * Sark was considered the last feudal state in Europe. In 2008, its feudal system was replaced with a "fully-elected democratic government".
 * In England, all feudal systems have been abolished with the exception of the one in the village of Laxton, Nottinghamshire, which has "the last remaining working open field system in the United Kingdom." In the 21st century, management of farmland in Laxton is handled by a "feudal court" which has annual meetings. Dimadick (talk) 12:04, 17 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Though not themselves explicitly feudal, one might consider the Verderer systems that operate in three districts of England to be (revised) remnants of a component of English feudalism. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.221.80.5 (talk) 11:50, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Vitezslav's poem Edison (poem)
Is the English translation (by Osers) of this available online, or failing that, in which printed works can I see it? Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.198.85.68 (talk) 17:14, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The most I could find online is a 40-line excerpt. --Lambiam 22:02, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

His Masters Voice
Our article about Nipper says "The original oil painting hung in the EMI boardroom in Hayes, Middlesex, for many years", but does not indicate where it is now. Can anyone run it to ground? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 20:27, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The original is in the EMI boardroom in 30 Gloucester Place, London. The others are as listed here. Nanonic (talk) 03:40, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * But EMI doesn't exist anymore. DuncanHill (talk) 13:21, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the EMI Archive Trust? Alansplodge (talk) 17:35, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * "In the UK, however, His Master’s Voice would ultimately become EMI, which continued to exhibit the original painting at its headquarters until it’s closure in 2012. The painting is sadly no longer displayed in the public domain; and in my research I was unable to find the location of the original painting".   Alansplodge (talk) 20:59, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

It seems to me there is an error, or at least a contradiction, in Wikipedia’s “Connecticut Colony” article.
The Wikipedia article “Connecticut Colony” has as its first sentence under “Leaders” the following: “Governor John Haynes of the Massachusetts Bay Colony led 100 people to Hartford in 1636.” In that sentence, “John Haynes” is a link to a Wikipedia article “John Haynes (governor)”. The second and third paragraphs under “Connecticut Colony” in that article, read in part: “Haynes, while making arrangements to follow Hooker, continued to be involved in Massachusetts through 1636…Haynes joined Hooker at the settlement they called Hartford in 1637.”

It seems to me that the article on Governor John Haynes acknowledges that he not only did not “lead” that crowd of 100 in 1636 to what was to become Hartford, but that he wasn’t even in the crowd, only joining them in Hartford in 1637.

I discovered this when reading about Rev. Thomas Hooker, who (with Rev. Samuel Stone) assuredly did lead that group, as the Wikipedia article “Thomas Hooker” says clearly in its eighth paragraph, reading in part, “ Owing to his conflict with Cotton and discontented with the suppression of Puritan suffrage and at odds with the colony leadership,[7] Hooker and the Rev. Samuel Stone led a group of about 100[13] who, in 1636, founded the settlement of Hartford, named for Stone's place of birth, Hertford in England.[14]” 72.224.65.32 (talk) 21:50, 16 March 2021 (UTC)


 * This biography agrees with you. The whole of the Connecticut_Colony section lacks any sort of referencing, so you can change it. Alansplodge (talk) 09:24, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Gombe Chimpanzee War
I'm still in shock from learning about the Gombe Chimpanzee War... Does anyone know if there are any other recorded cases of "organized conflicts" or "wars" like this for other animals? Aza24 (talk) 22:59, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * World War I, fought between tribes of Homo sapiens, has been recorded extensively.  --Lambiam 09:25, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I knew someone was going to make that joke... good job ... :) Aza24 (talk) 02:20, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
 * This is not an answer to your question, but you may also find Emu War interesting. It's not an organized conflict like Gombe was, but it is similarly amusing. And it does have some parallels in how it is represented in the literature -- a good subject for someone studying rhetoric, at least :)? Urve  (talk) 19:29, 18 March 2021 (UTC)


 * I'm bemused that this is listed in Category:1970s conflicts and Category:Conflicts in Africa. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:37, 18 March 2021 (UTC)