Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 March 28

= March 28 =

Continuing a litigation after case is dismissed with prejudice
Plaintiff may have had a decent case, but her lawyer refused to wear a mask in court, judge was a Covid survivor, and dismissed the case with prejudice. Judge also said that didn't stop plaintiff from continuing the litigation. How can that be? I thought "with prejudice" meant the opposite of that: it's over, bub (modulo an expensive and probably useless appeal process which doesn't sound like what the judge had in mind). Any explanation? Obvs I have nothing to do with this case, just trying to understand the news article. 2602:24A:DE47:BB20:50DE:F402:42A6:A17D (talk) 03:46, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The linked article does not say "with prejudice". Perhaps it originally did, but it was a mistake and has been corrected. --184.147.181.129 (talk) 06:49, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
 * FWIW, the OP's understanding of the term is correct. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.219.35.136 (talk) 14:29, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Ethnic groups in Chinese history
There are contradicting information within this article.
 * "The American sinologist Marc S. Abramson explains why "barbarian" is the appropriate translation for general terms like fan 番 and hu 胡, but not specific ones like fancai 番菜 'foreign-style food'." -> If one refers to a specific ethnic or concept, experts usually prefer transliteration.
 * "Thus, I have chosen not to translate these terms when they designate particular groups, individuals, or phenomena and do not (this word may be a misquote?) refer to a specific ethnic group, language, geographic place, or cultural complex." -> Should not translate = should transliterate. In other words, one should translate when referring to a specific ethnic group, language, geographic place or cultural complex. It contradicts an earlier sentence. Maybe, there is a misquote somewhere. It makes way more sense if the word "not" is removed. I'm not sure. Nguyentrongphu (talk) 07:40, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
 * There were a few copying errors, which I have corrected, but the part you cite was a faithful copy from the quoted source. --Lambiam 13:48, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Allegorical meaning of pony music videos
Would someone please explain the allegorical meaning of ? Please compare and contrast with.

I have further questions regarding and.

2601:647:4D00:2C40:CCD0:7BD9:21A8:D1CE (talk) 07:54, 28 March 2021 (UTC)


 * What makes you think there is an allegorical meaning to these videos? Apparently, someone has fun adding My Little Pony animations to the sound tracks of well-known pop songs, such as, for the first two, a cover of "Holding Out for a Hero" by Jennifer Saunders, taken from the soundtrack of Shrek 2. --Lambiam 13:17, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

how do I report a factual error?
somebody wrote that John Brown's father was also named John (it was Owen), and that his cenotaph was moved to John Brown Farm in NY in 1831. He wasn't even dead yet! And John Brown didn't move to Lake Placid until 1849.. The man — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.59.232.222 (talk) 15:33, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
 * In which article is this error? Blueboar (talk) 16:04, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Presumably John Brown (abolitionist), although I can't see anything in that article about a memorial to him being moved in 1831. --Viennese Waltz 16:35, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah... I didn’t see any of the above mentioned errors in the main JB bio article either. That’s why I wanted to double check that it wasn’t in some related article. It may have been fixed already. Blueboar (talk) 16:48, 28 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Looks like it might be John_Brown_Farm_State_Historic_Site, which has the uncited sentence A cenotaph on the grave of John Brown was originally erected and inscribed for his father, Capt. John Brown, who died September 5, 1776, while serving in the Continental Army, and originally sat at the elder Brown's gravesite in Connecticut until 1831, when it was replaced with a larger tombstone and moved to the younger Brown's farm in New York. Looking at John_Brown_(abolitionist), “father” should be “grandfather”, so I’ve made that change which I believe addresses the issue raised here.
 * But 24.59.232.222, the answer to your question is that next time, if you see an error in Wikipedia, you can use the “Edit” tab on the page with the error (top of page in desktop view) to fix it, or use the “Talk” tab on the page with the error to request another person fix it. Thank you for pointing it out! 70.67.193.176 (talk) 16:45, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
 * That's fine in theory but it rarely works in practice. Personally I never bother with raising issues like this on article talk pages, it's a waste of time. I've raised issues on article talk pages and no-one has replied for months, sometimes years. Far better to do what the OP did and draw attention to errors and inaccuracies here on the ref desk, there's a much higher chance of the article being fixed this way. --Viennese Waltz 17:50, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
 * And the chance of the article being fixed is 100% if you WP:BOLDLY fix it yourself. ~Anachronist (talk) 01:48, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * A corrolary of Cunningham's_Law. —Tamfang (talk) 06:38, 4 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Yup... Capt. Brown was the grandfather of the famous abolitionist. The NRHP documentation source confirms that the stone was his, and was moved to NY when a new headstone was made in CT.  However, the date given for moving the tombstone has to be off (and I can’t find a source)... Did the abolitionist own a different farm in NY in 1831? Blueboar (talk) 16:58, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
 * That's where I'm stuck too. If we remove the 1831 date from the article, could you then add your source that covers the rest of the sentence? 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:28, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Follow the Findagrave ancestry trail of John Brown the abolitionist, and see if there's any helpful info. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:03, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Taking Bug’s advice... I followed the find-a-grave trail.... It seems that 1831 is when Hannah Brown (Capt. Brown’s wife - the grandmother of the famous abolitionist) died. At that time, Capt. Brown’s original headstone in CT was replaced (with a new headstone that added her name).  The abolitionist appears to have taken possession of the original headstone, and subsequently used it as HIS headstone. Where it was stored between 1831 and 1859 is not mentioned.
 * Unfortunately, find-a-grave is notoriously unreliable. So... best solution is to simply remove the 1831 date, and cite the NRHP documentation for the rest. Blueboar (talk) 20:23, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Especially when it parrots Wikipedia. The various writeups have some sources mentioned here and there. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:34, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Converting 1906-1907 French frances to today's American dollars
Is there a way to convert 1906-1907 French frances to today's American value? I am upgrading my article I created on the Cone sisters to a Good Article and am interested in knowing IF there is a way to represent old frances (e.g. 10,000 frances or 120,760 frances or 410,000 frances) to today's value. Thanks.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 15:42, 28 March 2021 (UTC)


 * One LMU Franc represented 4.5 grammes (69 grains) of fine silver or 0.290322 grammes (4.48035 grains) of fine gold. BTW - the plural of franc is francs, not frances. DuncanHill (talk) 15:57, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for reply. O.K. Let's see IF I am getting this correctly. So what you are saying is that 10,000 francs represented 45,000 grammes (690,000 grains) of fine silver or 2,903.22 grammes (44,803.5 grains) of fine gold. So in other words, I need to know what 45,000 grammes (690,000 grains) of fine silver or 2,903.22 grammes (44,803.5 grains) of fine gold was worth in the United States in the 1906-1907 time period? However I don't have a clue. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 18:02, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
 * the Gold Standard Act 1900 fixed the value of the US dollar at ​25 8⁄10 grains of gold at "nine-tenths fine" (90% purity), equivalent to 23.22 grains (1.5046 grammes) of pure gold. DuncanHill (talk) 18:24, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
 * It was $20.67 per troy oz., according to and a couple other sources I found.  RudolfRed (talk) 18:30, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Here is a 1913 conversion, the earliest year available for France on that site. 2602:24A:DE47:BB20:50DE:F402:42A6:A17D (talk) 19:20, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for replies y'all. Now let's see if I can do some good math. One US dollar = 25.800 grains of fine gold. Looking at Troy weight it looks like 1 troy ounce is 480 grains. That means 690,000 grains / 480 grains per troy ounce = 143.57 troy ounces, which would be $6.94 US dollars (143.57 / $20.67 per troy oz). That means then that Etta of the Cone sisters commonly spent that amount in US dollars for a painting, since she commonly spent an average of 10,000 francs for a painting.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 19:25, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
 * That would mean that her sister Claribel spent $284.54 for Paul Cézanne's Mont Sainte-Victoire Seen From the Bibemus Quarry painting (41 X $6.94). How is my math?--Doug Coldwell (talk) 20:00, 28 March 2021 (UTC)


 * You unfortunately used the value for silver (690,000 grains). Trying again with the value for gold, bypassing unnecessary troy ounces and using only grains:
 * 10,000 gold FF = 44,803.5 grains / 25.8 grains per gold US dollar = $1,736.57
 * This matches up exactly with a similar calculation I did here in February, 1 FF = 4.48 grains / 25.8 grains per dollar = $0.1736. In other words, to convert francs to dollars, just multiply by 0.1736. This currency converter (test version 1.0) gives $1,913.96 which I think is a bit out, since it converts to Swedish values and back again. Incidentally, this document Silver Bullion Certificates : Speech of Hon. F. M. Cockrell of Missouri, Debate in the Senate, June 9 1890 accurately defines the changing value of US gold and silver dollars since independence up to 1890. Hope this helps, MinorProphet (talk) 01:40, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I find it somewhat surprising that you had forgotten what I told you last time. "French frances"? Are you really the same person? Maybe WP:Sock? Or stupid a bad speller? In any case, try Measuring Worth. MinorProphet (talk) 00:36, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Anthony Burgess and James, Tangiers 1963
Anthony Burgess inscribed a first edition of Inside Mr Enderby to "To James on his birthday - Tangier, ... April, 1963 [Holy Week] from "Joseph Kell" (Anthony Burgess)". You can see the inscription here. I would love to know who James was. We do know that Burgess arrived in Tangiers with letters of introduction from his publication to Rupert Croft-Cooke and Robin Maugham, so perhaps someone who moved in their circles. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 16:45, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
 * A common promotional technique used by authors (and their marketing support team) is to have the author set up a small table in a book store or similar place, and inscribe newly purchased copies of their books. (sometimes called a "junket", see here, definition a2)  I don't know if Burgess did one of these promotional appearances in Tangiers in 1963, but that may be an avenue to look down.  --[[User:Jayron32| Jayron]32 13:51, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Given that Burgess set off for Tangier in the company of W. S. Burroughs to do some 'research' for his next novel, Enderby Outside, (see Andrew Biswell's The Real Life of Anthony Burgess, pp. 300-304), and Allen Ginsburg was also there, and maybe they just missed Joe Orton, and that all of the aforementioned people including Croft-Cooke and Maugham were decidedly gay, I would suggest that James probably didn't randomly turn up at a book signing. However, the Librairie des Colonnes, 54 Boulevard Pasteur, might have hosted such an event. I wondered if the book was in a library with some accession detals, but it turned up in a street market in Tangier, and not even the Irwell Edition people have any idea who James was. Holy Week 1963 was from 7 to 14 April. Looks like that well-known needle/haystack interface. MinorProphet (talk) 16:00, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, I don't think it's a book shop signing - Burgess would surely have asked for and written the exact birthday. I've got a feeling this could be tracked down - someone very familiar with the Tangerine Scene of the time might recall a reference in all the biographies and diaries and letters. Of course one of the problems is that between them Burroughs, Croft-Cooke, and Maugham pretty much knew everyone. DuncanHill (talk) 20:13, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed, reminiscences, diaries, biographies etc. might be fruitful. Or perhaps James was somehow un-memorable, someone who just happened to be there at the time? It's a relatively formal inscription, not like "Happy Birthday James, from Anthony". Maybe written by the 'grand auteur'... I have passed briefly through relatively exalted company, and no-one would have ever written a word about me in their memoirs: just passing though, ships that meet in the night, etc. Burgess set off on 29 March, and Easter was on 14 April. Or maybe it's a memory of something that happened during holy week and remembered later. Burgess was a lapsed Catholic. Perhaps a letter etc. to the LRB, the TLS, or even the small ads section of Private Eye might turn up something? MinorProphet (talk) 21:58, 29 March 2021 (UTC)