Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 May 27

= May 27 =

Eliza Jane White aka Ida L. White Chancery case
Eliza Jane White, who published as Ida L. White was the subject of a chancery case regarding the will of her husband George White (died 1876) which reportedly lasted for eleven years, and has been likened to Jarndyce and Jarndyce in its effect on his estate. The case was possibly brought by his executor, the Anglican Priest John Walton Murray, and/ or the White's daughter Violet Victoria. Eliza's professed atheism seems to have been a factor.

Remarkably, details of this intriguing case are proving very hard to find. Can anyone help?

, who have all been working on this. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:44, 27 May 2021 (UTC)


 * No good answers yet, so I’ll just pop up my potential leads, in case spending money or making in-person trip to archives is possible. Apologies if you've already considered these.
 * London Gazette often lists chancery cases. In the prison memoir that is already a source in Ida’s article, she says the case began while she was in prison, which would give a date range 1888-1899. Looking at how other chancery cases are listed in the Gazette it’s going to be formatted something like Surname vs. Surname plus details, so “George White” should be the best search string since it would come up in the details. There are 300-odd hits.
 * Paid archives that might list chancery cases the Times, or the Law reports database.
 * Per How to look for records of Chancery cases after 1875 fuller records can be obtained by going to the National Archives in Kew in person. The Nat Archives also have individual prisoner files from Holloway. My understanding is that neither of these are searchable online. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 21:34, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I've tried the Gazette, and the Times, with variety of name combinations, to no effect. A friend has tried the Lexis and Westlaw legal databases, again with no luck, but notes that "'George White' is the name of a barrister who was active during the second half of the nineteenth century so you get loads of results for cases where he's mentioned". Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:15, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Ohhh, that's hard. George White is tough enough to search as it is.70.67.193.176 (talk) 15:14, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps the case is listed under Violet Victoria's married name, which we don't yet know? Her two siblings (also female) may also have been parties. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:32, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Maybe one daughter was called Agnes Fleming? But the date seems so early. Maybe a stepdaughter? On 24 March 1857 William[Fleming married Agnes Matilda White, daughter of George White, editor of The Ballymena Observer and Registrar of Marriages for Ballymena and district.] 70.67.193.176 (talk) 15:35, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry, can’t be her. Died 1862 October 18, at the residence of her father, Agnes Matilda relict of the late Mr. William Fleming and daughter of George White Esq. Ballymena, aged 24 years. A sad story there. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 16:42, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I believe George was significantly older than Eliza, and she was his second wife - he was a widower on their marriage certificate in 1862. His age is unclear, but I would guess born sometime between 1805 and 1820. If the dates in her later prison record are correct, she was probably born about 1844 and so married about 18.
 * Agnes Matilda was thus definitely a stepdaughter, and there was at least one more surviving as of 1876 - four daughters were named in the report of George's funeral, "Emma Adelina" plus Eliza's three daughters. Andrew Gray (talk) 17:06, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I think I may have found out a hint why there was such a messy legal case, though: his will (available from PRONI) names... three daughters, not four. "Violet Victoria White, Agnes Matilda Catherine Amelia White, and Ethelwine Alberta Douglas White". His widow and Murray are appointed trustees, and Murray is named as guardian to the children. Despite being dated 1876. One wonders about poor Pansy. Andrew Gray (talk)
 * One does indeed. I don't suppose Pansy's real name could be Agnes Matilda and she was named after her deceased half sister? If he had updated the will to add Violet and Ethelwyn, you would think he would have removed the earlier Agnes?70.67.193.176 (talk) 19:53, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I think you're right - I had got confused and thought that was Emma (the one still living in 1876). "Agnes Matilda Catherine Amelia White", married 3 September 1900, aged 33, daughter of George White, editor. Witnesses were Violet Victoria Davies Nettell and her husband Maurice Davies Nettell. That seems very likely to be Pansy. Andrew Gray (talk) 22:44, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The Chancery Division of the High Court handles contentious probate.  There used to be a "Probate, Divorce and Admiralty" Division.   This website  has contact details for an office providing "copies of wills and grants issued since 1858".   George White was domiciled in Ulster and prior to the Judicature Act 1873 Ireland had its own courts of equity and common law,  and adjacent serial numbers.   By 1890 the Vice-Chancellor was hearing cases in the Chancery Division between parties resident in Belfast and Ballymena.   It appears from  that cases are heard locally.   The person who brought the case may have been resident in Ireland and Eliza lived in London. 84.9.101.54 (talk) 13:53, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I have drawn a complete blank on tracing the chancery case in the British Newspaper Archive (both English and Irish titles). It is unlikely to have been in Violet's married name (the reference in 1893 strongly suggests it was over by then, and she did not marry until 1894). Ethelwyn was also unmarried in 1894; I have not been able to trace the third daughter.
 * However, I dug into it a bit last night and between newspaper references and the dates on the poems have managed to piece together a timeline - prison sections in bold.
 * 1884 - Ida was living in London by this point, having moved from Ballymena via Belfast at some point after 1879
 * 1886, December - poem dated from Holloway Prison at Christmas
 * 1887, May - living in Fulham. White gets in a feud with her tenant, the "Countess de la Torre", that ends up in Hammersmith police court in May. She is then sent to the Old Bailey on (seperate) charges of libelling the Countess; found guilty but not clear what sentence was given. Described as a Socialist in newspaper reports.
 * 1887, August - poem dated from Holloway Prison
 * 1887, October - back living in Fulham and in court as a witness when some clothes are stolen from her
 * 1888, January - letter written from Holloway Prison
 * 1888, March - poem dated from Charing Cross Hospital
 * 1888, July - letter written from Paris; remains there until at least Feb 1889.
 * 1889, April - in Rome
 * 1889, September - in London, unknown address (writes the preface to Three Banquets)
 * 1890 - second volume of poems published
 * 1892 - attended Socialist meetings in Hull & Yarmouth
 * 1893, May - John Walton Murray dies.
 * 1893, July - made the "attack" on the Czarevich and refers to lawsuit as having lasted eleven years
 * 1894 - Violet Victoria White is married in London; Ida is noticeably not mentioned as one of the attendees.
 * 1896 - advertises French lessons in Belfast (living back at The Tryst, Lyle Hill; compare "Flowers from Lyle")
 * 1897 - donation to an anarchist fund
 * 1899 - lecturing at the Freethought Society, London
 * 1901 - last volume of poems published
 * So this seems to confirm three distinct periods of imprisonment, with confirmation of being out of prison between them, and at least one of them being for debt. I have so far only been able to identify one in the prisoner records on Ancestry, the 1887 imprisonment, which seems to be connected with the libel suit. The last period of imprisonment generally fits with the details given in the intro to Three Banquets - Charing Cross hospital and then Paris afterwards, etc. The "twenty years" reference would probably match with the first instance of imprisonment - Violet was born mid-1865.
 * The "eleven years" thus suggests the case had begun in 1882, if not earlier. My suspicion is that the court case was already ticking along and Violet later came in as a party in her own right, perhaps because she had just turned 21 and was thus able to do so? One of the poems strongly suggests they were already estranged by the time Violet was 19, in 1884. Andrew Gray (talk) 17:06, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Amazing work! 70.67.193.176 (talk) 19:49, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * And yet in the preface to the 1901 volume (dated September 1900), she writes at length about spending time with "Violet's little son", Lally. One of the poems in the volume is entitled "Lally, my Daughter Violet's Son". Perhaps there was a rapprochement? The final page of that work also refers - unfortunately somewhat obliquely - to "The Dean's Crime", and seems to promise a (then) forthcoming work of autobiographical nature, and that "There shall be the unveiling of the Violet Victoria and the Scotland Yard detective liaison and the proper staging of a family of parvenus involved...". And yes, great work indeed, Andrew. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:28, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I think I've found him, as well: "Alan Barrie Davies Nettell", born late 1894. So maybe there was indeed a reconciliation sometime in the 1890s. It does look like she straightened her life out a bit after the third term in prison! Andrew Gray (talk) 22:58, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Now on Wikidata as and .  Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:46, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Was John Walton Murray the same John Walton Murray who was Dean of Connor? DuncanHill (talk) 22:06, 28 May 2021 (UTC)


 * I am pretty confident he was. He is described as "the Dean" by Ida in her poems, and in the probate records he is clearly a clergyman. I couldn't find any obvious indication of there being two of them around. Andrew Gray (talk) 22:45, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Modern pre-Islamic worshipping
Are there any contemporary Neopagan groups centered around pre-Islamic beliefs (Hubal, etc), similar to modern pre-Christian worshippers? 212.180.235.46 (talk) 13:23, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Technically, Christianity itself is a pre-Islamic faith that has persisted to modern times, as is Judaism, Zoroastrianism, etc. all of which would have been practiced in what later became the "Islamic World" for centuries before Muhammad was born. If you're looking for things like Ancient Semitic religions and various forms of Arabian polytheism, then no, I am not aware of any such religions.  There are more modern religions that developed in Muslim-majority countries like Bahá'í Faith, which is to Islam roughly what Unitarian Universalism is to Christianity.  However, Bahá'í is not a neopagan religion like Wicca or anything like that.  I don't know of any tradition of "neo-Arabian-polytheism" or anything like that, and those faiths died out a millennium ago as active religions. -- Jayron 32 16:40, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Neopagans revive historical beliefs that died out a long time ago. I think of such practices as not very different from cosplay; put on a druid costume and pretend you're Getafix. In predominantly Islamic cultures, attempts at neopagan revivals may expect to be met with a certain level of hostility. --Lambiam
 * Agreed: see Modern Paganism and fakelore. Alansplodge (talk) 11:14, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I think there is a spectrum there; there are certainly some modern pagans who have belief in earnest no different than those who practice other religious traditions. The references to fakelore and cosplay implies a certain "putting on of airs" or lack or earnestness that I don't think applies universally.  -- Jayron 32 12:34, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * As a (desultorily) practicing Wiccan myself, I can assure you that, while a certain amount of fun is involved (and why not?), most of us neopagans are well aware that our various strands are not straight re-creations of ancient beliefs (whose details are generally poorly known) that we hold literally, but rather a use of them as a framework within which philosophical approaches to life are actively experimented with and evolved, and which most of us take very seriously. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.121.163.176 (talk) 20:31, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * It would probably technically fall under Semitic neopaganism, but that article doesn't include anything Arab (except possibly the last footnote)... AnonMoos (talk) 23:09, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

What determines the proportions of stocks?
What determines whether a company's stock can be $100 but in 1 million pieces, or $50 but at 2 million pieces? Regardless of the rate it goes up or down. For specifically the NYSE. 67.165.185.178 (talk) 15:28, 27 May 2021 (UTC).
 * It's a choice. The company can do a stock split or reverse stock split to keep the share price at a convenient level. These mechanisms do exactly what you mentioned, splitting the same total market capitalization into a different number of shares outstanding. An initial public offering also sells the right number of shares to result in a reasonable share price. (There are other mechanisms like share repurchase and stock dividends, which can also help control the share price.) Then the question is, what range of share prices do people find convenient? The share prices for components of the S&P 100 go from $10 to $2000, and most are around $50 to $250 . --Amble (talk) 16:08, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Share price is largely determined by corporate governance, and depends on why, and for what purpose, a company wants to control its own stocks. If there is a desire to maintain a high volume of active trading, a company is incentivized to produce a lot of low-value shares.  If a company is interested in maintaining control of the shares in the hands of a small number of shareholders, then it maintains a small number of high-value shares that are harder to move on the open market.  Famously, Berkshire Hathaway A Class stock is maintained at stupidly high prices ($400,000 per share, at most recent estimates) for the very reason that it allows continuity of governance since shares don't get traded quickly, and it is basically impossible for someone to quietly acquire a controlling interest.  -- Jayron 32 16:46, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * In fact, the price of that stock recently caused a minor problem on the NASDAQ, because some part of their software represented prices in hundredths of a cent US, and couldn't handle a price per share greater than 232&minus;1 of those units, in other words $429,496.7295 per share; and when it reached that level, they had to quickly fix the software. --184.145.50.201 (talk) 20:06, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Damn you, Berkshire Hathaway. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:04, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Newspapers in Japan
This vague question might incite an equally vague answer, but why are newspapers so widely read in Japan? I look at List of newspapers by circulation, and see China and India dominating the list (which makes sense, for population reasons) but also Japan—why? There are certainly more populous countries... any thoughts or insights would be appreciated. Aza24 (talk) 20:04, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Oshigami. Nanonic (talk) 20:18, 27 May 2021 (UTC)