Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 May 8

= May 8 =

Juliana (the font)
One of my favourite fonts is called Linotype Juliana, by Sem L Hartz. Here is a sampler. I had a copy of the sampler saved on my hard disk.

Today I went looking for information about it, only to discover that the internet seems to have forgotten about its existence. I'm pretty certain there used to be a Wikipedia page, but that's vanished. More confusingly, if you do a Tineye search on that image, you get quite a few pages but almost all of them are now 404s. The only one that still exists is myfonts.com's page about Hartz, which shows a completely different font under "Juliana".

I don't believe in the Mandela effect, but I almost feel I've stumbled into one. Can anyone tell me what happened here? Marnanel (talk) 13:28, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Your Juliana can be seen here and here. Just to confuse the matter even more, there is also a third font with the same name, shown here (top right column). Obviously a (too) popular font name. --T*U (talk) 14:33, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Add: It may seem that Linotype has abandonded their original Juliana by Hartz and TM-ed the one you found, while the Hartz font (digitalised by David Berlow) is still alive at Font Bureau. --T*U (talk) 14:42, 8 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Hi, thanks for the question. Dutch Type by Jan Middendorp has a feature on its history. As the above editor notes you can buy a professional digitisation from Font Bureau. Blythwood (talk) 07:21, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Denominations
An article mentions "... Methodist, Baptist and Christian persuasions ...". I get the first two, but wheer exactly would I find the last one? Thought that was a more general concept. Any clarification would be appreciated. Regards, --G-41614 (talk) 16:35, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Which article? --T*U (talk) 17:05, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * This is Google's only search result for the phrase. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 19:06, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * That is a transcription from this 1886 book, page 288. --T*U (talk) 19:38, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * . I'm not sure what you mean by "general concept" here, but it is true that Methodists and Baptists are Christians. It may be that the writer is slighting them by suggesting they are not proper Christians.--Shantavira|feed me 08:11, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the author meant "Methodist, Baptist and [other] Christian persuasions" which would make more sense. Alansplodge (talk) 12:52, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * That was also my initial thought, but it is strange that the omission is repeated twice in two succeeding paragraphs that are similar, but not identical: "Baptist, Methodist and Christian persuasions" in one and "Methodist, Baptist and Christian persuasions" in the other. Even in 1886, both Baptism and Methodism must have been seen as Christian. --T*U (talk) 13:16, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, it would seem I have been just a bit too brief in my inquiry. The "article" in question is, as had been noticed, obviously, not a wp-article, but found here. I'm german, and my englisch is somewhat rusty, but I thought I somehow recalled having at some time or other heard or read mention a, for lack of better word, church, or community, that is not simply one of the christian churches, but actually called Christian church - not as in building, but as in group of people sharing the same parameters of faith. As the source is from the 19th century, perhaps that is a reason for the distinction. The matter of interest to me is how to interpret that in german, as I was writing a de:wp-article when I stumbled upon this issue. Since me, too, thought Methodists and Baptists are considered part of the Christian religions. If there's no other explanation, guess so far I'll simply ignore it. Or put in " ... and other christian denominations." Thank you all for your troubles so far. Regards, --G-41614 (talk) 16:06, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * One possible candidate would be Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), but I have problems accepting that they would be mentioned as just "... and Christian ...", as would be the problem for any other congregation using "Christian" as their main "definition". The construction "Methodist, Baptist and Christian" is odd and would have been odd even i 1886. Your solution "... and other Christian denominations" will be the safest solution, or even just "... and other denominations", since "Christian" would be implicitly assumed. --T*U (talk) 16:27, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the explanation. Now I'd have to find out if the DoC was active in NH mid- to late 19th century. But since I'm not wirting a thesis, guess I'll just point out that the church building was open to all present christian denominations (assuming I got that term right), among other M/B. Thanks all for your troubles, --G-41614 (talk) 11:34, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * G-41614, in 19th-century US history, this is the dominant way to refer to Restoration movement churches, either Disciples of Christ or otherwise. I've seen this construction used tons of times, and I've never seen it used with any meaning other than a Restoration church.  Historically, many churches in the movement saw themselves as the only Christian churches ("we worship Christ, you worship Methodism" or "you're Baptists, but we're Christians"), and they wouldn't have been at all open to having their building used by Baptists, Methodists, or any other kinds of churches.  The same group was often called "New Lights" by outsiders.  Nyttend backup (talk) 18:44, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Rudolf Hess, Carl Hess of Schleswig, a death in Devon, and a grave in Wales.
In the Welsh village of Michaelston-y-Fedw is a gravestone bearing the inscription "Erected by Carl Hess of Schleswig in Loving Memory of his wife Elizabeth Mackie Who Died at Bystock, Exmouth, Devon June 13th 1891 aged 35 years 'In Life beloved, in death never forgotten'". You can see a photograph of it here. Local folklore, and indeed newspapers and even this BBC blog, has Carl as the father of Rudolf Hess, of evil memory. Now our article on Rudolf says his father was one Johann Fritz Hess. Who was Carl Hess? Was he Johann Fritz? Is there some other connexion that has become garbled with time? And why, if Carl was from Schleswig and Elizabeth died in Devon, was she buried where Monmouthshire meets Glamorgan? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 17:40, 8 May 2021 (UTC)


 * The easy bit is why she was buried in Wales; according to the Western Mail article that you have linked above, "Miss Elizabeth Mackie, born and bred in Michaelstone-y-Fedw, but of Scottish descent" and the journalist records meeting her siblings who still lived there in 1941. BTW, the suffix "y fedw" means "of the birch trees". Alansplodge (talk) 19:39, 8 May 2021 (UTC)


 * A confusing factor may be that Rudolf Hess (artist) – a completely different person of course, born 1903 and died 1986 in California – "married a Florence Louise Mackie in 1946 in Burlingame, California." According to the cited source, she was born 27 November 1921 in Berkley, California, but a family connection (or even two) is (are) possible. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.200.135.95 (talk) 19:58, 8 May 2021 (UTC)


 * "Rudolf’s grandfather, Johann Christian Hess, married Margaretha Bühler, the daughter of a Swiss consul, in 1861 in Trieste. After the birth of his father, Johann Fritz Hess, the family moved to Alexandria, Egypt. Johann Christian Hess founded the import company Heß & Co. which his son, Johann Fritz Hess, took over in 1888. Rudolf’s mother, Klara, was the daughter of Rudolf Münch, a textile industrialist and councillor of commerce from Hof, Upper Franconia... The family lived in a villa on the Egyptian coast near Alexandria, and visited Germany often from 1900, staying at their summer home in Reicholdsgrün (now part of Kirchenlamitz) in the Fichtel Mountains".
 * Johann and Klara married on 25 February 1892 in Hof, Bavaria.
 * So Rudolf's documented father was already running a business in Egypt at the time of the Exmouth wedding, and wouldn't have had much time for running a hotel in Hamburg either. I suspect the family in Wales put two and two together and made five; there was no way for anyone in Britain to contradict the story in the middle of a war. Alansplodge (talk) 20:19, 8 May 2021 (UTC)


 * (ec) It is possible that Carl Hess, the widower of Elizabeth Mackie, had a son Rudolf – a rather common name – and that Mr. Edward Mackie, the brother of Elizabeth, mistakenly identified the two Rudolfs speaking to the "Western Mail" reporter in 1941 after the spectacular solo flight of the Deputy Führer. He mentions a brother by the name Wilhelm; the Nazi Rudolf did have a brother, also a Nazi official, in the Nazi Party/Foreign Organization in Egypt, who, however, was named Alfred. Others copied the error without checking. --Lambiam 20:29, 8 May 2021 (UTC)


 * I have just found that Mrs Hess was delivered of a stillborn son the day she died. DuncanHill (talk) 21:13, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * It seems Hess was butler to John Pablo Bryce of Bystock Court. There seems to have been an F. Hess before him at Bystock (from adverts for staff in local papers). DuncanHill (talk) 21:19, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Which Hess? Was that butler Carl Hess of Schleswig? --Lambiam 12:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Churchill in Bristol
In 1909 Winston Churchill addressed the annual dinner of the Anchor Society at Colston Hall in Bristol. As he alighted from the train at Bristol Temple Meads he was attacked by Theresa Garnett, who cut his face with a dog whip. Is there a record of his speech at the dinner? Thank you. DuncanHill (talk) 20:52, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Hum. Now I find a newspaper article saying he was to speak at the Liberal Banquet at Colston Hall. Those reports say he spoke about the House of Lords and the People's Budget. DuncanHill (talk) 21:41, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The confusion may be because the (1-year term?) Chairman of the Anchor Society in 1898, and in 1909 possibly still the most recent (the article's text and its list of Chairmen seem at odds), was Herbert Ashman, previously the Liberal Councillor of [Bristol's] St Paul's ward from 1890 to 1900 and presumably still a senior figure in the local Liberals in 1909. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.200.135.95 (talk) 23:54, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Hot wings vs. Buffalo wings
I recently translated the Finnish article fi:SiipiWeikot into Siipiweikot. (The company itself spells its name with a lowercase w, I don't know where the Finnish Wikipedia got the uppercase W from.)

Anyway. On WikiMedia Commons, images of chicken wings of the type served at Siipiweikot fall into two categories: "Hot wings" and "Buffalo wings". I only know of one type of chicken wings served at Siipiweikot: chicken wings with the bone and the skin still attached, fried fully crispy, and served with a spicy chili sauce together with potato fries, carrot sticks and celery sticks. (By the way, I don't particularly like celery, but I love carrot. Why can't it just be carrot?)

So my question is, what is the difference between hot wings and Buffalo wings? What category should Siipiweikot products fall under? J I P &#124; Talk 23:06, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Buffalo wings are a type of hot wings. Other types use different spice mixtures in the sauce. Your description sounds like traditional Buffalo wings. Assuming that you used "chili sauce" in the sense of a "sauce made from chili peppers". --Khajidha (talk) 01:47, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * To me, "hot wings" and "buffalo wings" are synonymous. In either case, for a menu item thus advertized, I expect a fairly fiery sauce, with no specific distinction between the two that I'm aware of. --Lambiam 12:06, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * They are often used synonymously, but as our article states, buffalo wings are not breaded. I do see breaded wings sometimes branded as "buffalo", which is annoying and inaccurate, but there is supposed to be a distinction. Matt Deres (talk) 13:09, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Who said hot wings must be breaded? Nil Einne (talk) 13:58, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Nobody, including me. Buffalo wings are unbreaded; hot wings may be breaded or unbreaded. What bugs me is when breaded wings are called "buffalo". Matt Deres (talk) 14:31, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry I thought you were saying that buffalo wings being unbreaded, was a distinction from hot wings. It seems what you're saying is that you agree there is no clear distinction between buffalo wings and hot wings and they're can generally be used as synonyms. Although buffalo wings can never be breaded but hot wings can be, so in some cases hot wings can be distinct from buffalo wings even if not generally. Nil Einne (talk) 12:20, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, many of the restaurants I am familiar with have a selection of "hot wings" with "Buffalo" being only one of the sauce options available. And often one of the milder ones at that.--Khajidha (talk) 13:25, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Buffalo wing sauce is just hot sauce with butter, also known as "butter hot" sauce. Because it includes butter, there's a limit as to how hot it can get and the cayenne-based sauce that goes into it is just nominally hot. It wasn't until I guess the 90s or so that it got wrapped up in the machismo thing where the wings are rendered increasingly inedible and called "suicide wings" as a kind of dare. Matt Deres (talk) 13:57, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * True Buffalo wing sauce is specifically Frank's Red Hot sauce, that specific brand and type and no other, with melted butter. A kosher variety that uses milk-free margarine instead of butter (with no blue cheese dip on the side) has also long been available in Buffalo, so I’d call that authentic too. Hotter types made from more potent sauces aren’t authentic. 24.76.103.169 (talk) 15:40, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Frank's is very common, but as noted at Frank's RedHot, the exact brand of hot sauce used by the Anchor Bar has been lost to history. To answer the original question, I would consider "hot wings" to be the larger category, of which "Buffalo wings" are a subcategory.  As noted, Buffalo sauce is a specific preparation, and while there are many ways to make wings spicy, buffalo sauce is but one of them.  -- Jayron 32 13:35, 10 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Sounds to me like Buffalo wings is what Siipiweikot serves. The sauces are pretty much fiery hot cayenne-based sauces, and the wings are fried but unbreaded. J I P  &#124; Talk 16:26, 9 May 2021 (UTC)