Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 November 13

= November 13 =

Baron and Baroness DeVeuce
Our articles Terror and Satan's Slave say that they used the house of "he house of the Baron and Baroness DeVeuce in Pirbright" for location shooting. Our article Virgin Witch says the house was called "Admiral's Walk", and a picture of that can be seen here. The only mentions I can find of Baron and Baroness DeVeuce on Google are related to the films. Who were they? Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 00:52, 13 November 2021 (UTC)


 * No idea. In both sources/interviews, the director just calls the owners a baron and baroness (from France). Nothing about DeVeuce (originally spelled De Veuce in the initial edit on 14 May 2016, which also misspells the place Purbright). Clarityfiend (talk) 06:53, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The end credits for Terror include thanks to Baron and Baroness De Veuce (the spacing was not immediately clear to me with the font used and it being very late at night and I was getting up to make a cup of tea). DuncanHill (talk) 12:15, 13 November 2021 (UTC)


 * There's a de Worms family that has the title Baron Pirbright. Maybe "de Worms" somehow got mangled as "de Veuce". Adam Bishop (talk) 15:08, 13 November 2021 (UTC)


 * This source, which has some detail about the house not found elsewhere, spells the name "De Veauce". This spelling is confirmed by this brochure, which refers on pages 8 and 9 to a portion of the archives of Baron de Veauce, offered by order of Baroness de Veauce, of Pirbright, Surrey, and from another owner. A Baron Eugene de Veauce was born in 1908 in Marylebone, London and married Ethel Mary Crick, who became Baroness de Veauce. The baron may have been progeny of French equestrian Charles Eugène Amable de Veauce (1868–1934), reportedly a baron. --Lambiam 15:55, 13 November 2021 (UTC)


 * A Google search brought up a dead link to BARON EUGENE de VEAUCE - Visitors Book for his Surrey address: Chateau de Veauce, Admirals Walk, Pirbright, 1951-1977. gilt-vellum bound folio...
 * This chess forum thread says that de Veauce is the name of the barony and the family name is Cadier. Eugene died in 1996, his son Louis (born 1947) was the British under-21 chess champion in 1968. Alansplodge (talk) 22:30, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
 * An ancestor of his (perhaps his grandfather?), Charles Eugène de Cadier de Veauce, baron, was the minister of agriculture, commerce and public works in the 1860s during the Second French Empire. That regime didn't end well, which may be why the family moved to London. Alansplodge (talk) 22:41, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Here the French equestrian is named "Charles Eugène Amable Cadier"; his father's name is given as "Charles Eugène Cadier De Veauce" (1820–1884), apparently the minister. His son, Eugène Amable (1908-1996), can hardly be anyone else than the former resident of the Château de Veauce in Pirbright. Google Maps doesn't know about an Admiral's Walk in Pirbright, but here is a photograph of a Pirbright house called "Admirals Walk", and OpenStreetMap knows about a building "Admiral's Walk" in Pirbright (the one identified as "Pirbright Lodge" on the map?), just off Mill Lane. --Lambiam 23:58, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
 * According to this, the equestrian Charles-Eugène's second wife was an English lady called Gertrude Burton, whom he married in Slough in June 1907. Eugene was born in the following year. Alansplodge (talk) 17:02, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Many thanks all, splendid work - armed with the correct spelling I also found Château de Veauce in France, sold by Baron Eugene in 1973. Admiral's Walk is an avenue planted by Foul-Weather Jack, father of Mad Jack and grandfather of Mad, Bad, and Dangerous to Know George. The parish council have published a walk which maybe I'll try someday. DuncanHill (talk) 13:22, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Crowning Camilla
Writing in today's Daily Mail, Richard Kay says "Who would now bet against Camilla being crowned Queen at Charles's side rather merely [sic] observing his coronation as the princess consort?" Sources say that the wife of the monarch is legally the Queen whatever she may be called. Is this true? They also say that a queen consort is a private citizen and not crowned - Queen Caroline (wife of George IV) had the door slammed in her face when she went to attend her husband's coronation. Who is right? 2A00:23C5:E117:BD00:48C7:5557:FB5A:2D89 (talk) -- Preceding undated comment added 16:08, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The wife of a King is a Queen but that doesn't mean that she is the joint ruler of the land. When George VI died; his daughter Elizabeth II (the next in line) became the ruler of the UK and not his wife Queen Elizabeth (who became known as Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother). So she is a queen by marriage but not a queen by right. In other words, by marrying a King she becomes a queen consort. If she was queen by succession she'd be a queen regnant and if she was a widowed queen consort she'd be a queen dowager. If she was a queen consort, outlived the king and became a queen dowager and was the parent of the current monarch - she'd be a queen mother. Nanonic (talk) 16:34, 13 November 2021 (UTC)


 * The most recent coronation of a British king and queen together was the Coronation of George VI and Elizabeth. It used to be that if a king married after he was already king, then his wife would often be crowned separately, but that hasn't happened in a long time; all I can turn up right now is Elizabeth Woodville... AnonMoos (talk) 17:45, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Elizabeth of York also had a separate coronation... AnonMoos (talk) 17:56, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Anne Boleyn seems to have been the last on 1 June 1533. Alansplodge (talk) 21:36, 13 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Some information is at Princess consort which shows that the present stated position is that after Charles's accession, Camilla will take the title "HRH The Princess Consort". Presumably, legal advice was sought before this statement was issued.
 * Morganatic marriage goes over some of the legal debate the last time this happened; a compromise of Mrs Simpson becoming consort rather than queen was blocked by the parliaments of the UK and the Dominions. Attitudes to divorce have changed since then, both within the Church of England (of which Charles will be Supreme Governor) and in wider society.
 * I'm not much of a lawyer. but it seems to me that just about any outcome is possible provided that all the parliaments of the Commonwealth Realms can be persuaded to agree to it; the recent Perth Agreement (2011) to change the rules of succession is an example.  Alansplodge (talk) 21:27, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Traditionally there was no half-way marriage in Britain -- either a marriage was invalid, or it was valid (in which case the wife was entitled to all the honors due her from her husband's position, including being queen if he was king). But parliament can choose to change this at any time if it wants to (as you pointed out...) AnonMoos (talk) 23:12, 13 November 2021 (UTC)