Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 November 16

= November 16 =

"Sleeping mother's son" means?
"Sleeping mother's son" phrase appears in a recent autobiography of Pakistan Punjab background, google search gives only other search of the phrase from early 20th century America on archive.org.

Few porn searches too coming up but seem to be unrelated to the usage mentioned above. Probably it's swear words but can any one confirm any  analogy, context or  meaning of the usage? Does it mean "carelessness" or "inattentive"?

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 06:09, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Need context. Nanonic (talk) 07:31, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * "mother's son" is a (slightly old-fashioned) term for a man. A "Sleeping mother's son" would presumably therefore just be a sleeping man, although its a bit of an odd combination to use it like. (I mostly associate it with old pirate stories and the like, where you might see someone issue a threat like "hand over the loot, or we'll kill every mother's son among you!").  Maybe it would make more sense in context.  Iapetus (talk) 10:08, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Author 'Tez Ilyas' mentions in his (2021) autobiography (The Secret Diary of a British Muslim Aged 13 3/4 – available on google books) that his hafiz (teacher) at Lancaster Madrasa used to deploy very creative swearing, since swearing was not allowed in the mosque, Ilyas mentions he does not know meaning of "Sleeping mother's son" (And again Madrasa teacher is actually using Pakistan Punjabi language to say so! ;). Your explanation seem to fit as  most probable.
 * &#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 10:42, 16 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Here the term is explained as a Punjabi insult that avoids the use of swear words. In this context it is applied to someone with an inexcusable ignorance – they don't know their sabak (lesson?). --Lambiam 10:32, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, I got curious after reading the same. I tried searching google "سوئی ہوئی ماں کا بیٹا " in Urdu script and "ਸੋਤੀ ਮਾ ਦਾ ਪੁਤ੍ਤਰ" with Punjabi script at least with quotes did not return any results. May be some Punjabi can throw light on this. But what Iapetus says seem to fit the bill. Since pre Televesion era Pakistani Urdu used to have a genre of pop magazines dealing in crime and other stories. We can guess a little that some author might have imported some translation of some English story and got into Urdu or Punjabi subsequently reached the Madrasa master. That is just one guess. May be some one knowing Punjabi better, can tell us more about the same.
 * "Euphemism?": "hand over the loot, or we'll kill every mother's son among you!"; is it indirect euphemism that, to survive one need to have God's protection only? meaning only God can save you?
 * &#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 11:06, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * No, that is a typical example of the term "mother's son(s)" as it might be used in the context of historical fiction, and in British English is just a now-obsolete poetical variation of men (and/or boys), with no connotations of insult, religious meaning, or avoidance of swearing. The euphemistic usage referenced by Lambian is (presumably) from Punjabi culture and has no direct connection. {The poster foremrly known a s87.81.230.195} 90.205.225.31 (talk) 19:37, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the inputs &#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 11:59, 17 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Compare "no man of woman born" in the Scottish play. Macbeth takes this to mean no human man at all, and knows he's a goner when he meets an exceptional man ("from his mother's womb untimely ripp'd").  But even Macduff is his mother's son. —Tamfang (talk) 04:09, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Arabic (?) drawn by Italian painter
Though usually I ignore Orientalist paintings, a talk page discussion ref made me visit lnks to allegedly orientalist painter Giulio Rosati.

Absence of white slave traders  and black slaves in his painting makes one wonder whether his paintings had any unexpressed racial angle. But even if we keep aside his available slave paintings which seem to be in limited numbers compared to non–slavery paintings, like carpet traders & market etc. but also seem to be reasonably minute/ confident in details about his contemporary markets in Muslim world, for not to have visited Muslim world ever. Allegedly it is said that Rosati might not have visited Maghreb (Turkey of Middle east) in spite of reasonable life of 59 years and despite keen interest in middle eastern subjects for paintings seems surprising.

Copying paintings, as is from other painter's paintings is not too difficult to painters. In this painting about 'customer inspecting some cloth' on the wall depicted in the painting something seem to have been written in Arabic script. IMHO, usually a well studied and trained artist like Rosati is unlikely to just copy wording in other language without having knowledge of the same.


 * I am curious to confirm that what has been written in the given image in Arabic (script) and are there any inaccuracies in that writing?
 * Are there any independent scholarly studies about (not clubbed with other orientalist artist)  on  Giulio Rosati.

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 09:09, 16 November 2021 (UTC)


 * The word Allah appears twice in the writing on the wall – the second time as the last word – so it is some religious saying. --Lambiam 10:56, 16 November 2021 (UTC)


 * It's the same phrase as in this image. The first part is "mashallah", the second may be "tabarak allah", though I'm not too sure about how to read it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:04, 16 November 2021 (UTC)


 * In Arabic script ماشاء الله لا ولا قوة إلا بالله, transliterated here as Mashallah La Quwwata Illa Billah, meaning "Mashallah, there is no power but with Allah". For an image in a similar style as in the painting, look here. --Lambiam 11:55, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you for the informative responses. &#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 16:21, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Requesting German language help to understand illustration
Greetings, I do work on one article about non–elite female slavery in Ottoman times. I came across Salomon Schweigger's given illustration from page 203 of his (17th century) Ein newe Reiss Beschreibung auss Teutschland nach Constantinopel und (A new Reiss description from Germany to Constantinople and Jerusalem) (google book link, archive.org link)


 * I would like to know what this illustration speaks about specially about the first half naked lady from the right in the image. Is that an illustration of Ottoman time female slave by any chance.


 * Or is that illustration of Turkish woman's clothing from progressing from right to left. Because most right image shows trousers only, the middle one comes with the shirt and most left with over–coat. Is it something like that?


 * Any other details from Salomon Schweigger's memoirs / literature about non–elite female slavery in Ottoman times.

Thanks and warm regards

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 11:25, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The title of the illustration translates to "The clothing of Turkish women". In the title of the book, Reiss is Reise, i.e. "journey" or "travel", so "A new travel description from Germany to ..." or "A new description of a journey...". The figure is on page 203 of the book the description starts on p.202. The text is roughly "(A) wears transparent wide trousers of silk or soft canvas on the bare body/ (B) above the trousers she wears a transparent shirt, red, yellow, blue etc. also from silk or canvas" and so on. It doesn't say anything else about (A). --Wrongfilter (talk) 11:43, 16 November 2021 (UTC)


 * (ec) The image can be seen in its content on Google Books, here (on page 203). According to the text, no, it's not about slavery; it's an explanation of a (presumably well-to-do) lady's typical clothing, shown in three images from inside to outside – i.e. the rightmost image is the underwear (just a pair of transparent trousers made of silk or fine linen); the middle one is the same woman with a wide shirt worn over it; and the left one is the same women wearing another jacket over the shirt. There's another plate with three more stages until she's completed her full attire. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:49, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I also thought that this might be a sequence, but I'm not entirely convinced. I don't know how the boots in (C) would fit together with the wooden shoes in (B). Apart from that a sequence seems plausible. --Wrongfilter (talk) 12:01, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The text gives an incremental description, layer by layer, of the dress of Turkish women, so there is an intention of sequentiality. The two images (A)–(B)–(C) and (D)–(E)–(F) illustrate this description, where (D) and (E) depict the same stage differently. The various forms of footwear and headwear are also described. The artist did not attempt to depict each time the same model, as can be seen from their hairdos. --Lambiam 13:55, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * There is no chapter on female slavery in the book, but one on male prisoners (with an image and a description of their clothing) on p. 95–100. Pp.paul.4 (talk) 15:49, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks to all of you in helping me out in my understanding with proper nuanced details with your informative responses. warm regards

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 16:25, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Brexit: Which world or European headquarters left early, late and in between?
Are any firms still considering significant UK footprint reductions? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:00, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * This contains several sources to help you research the answers to your question. -- Jayron 32 13:04, 17 November 2021 (UTC)