Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 October 18

= October 18 =

Dr Beeching and the Trouble House coffin
Our article Trouble House Halt railway station says "On 4 April 1964, the last day of operation, when the last passenger train from Tetbury arrived at Trouble House Halt, a coffin was loaded onto the train by bowler-hatted mourners. It had been made by the landlord of the pub together with his brother, covered with inscriptions and filled with empty whisky bottles. On arrival at Kemble, the coffin was transferred to a train for Paddington, addressed to Richard Beeching". Do we know what happened to the coffin? Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 11:40, 18 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Not sure, but Last Call for the Dining Car: The Daily Telegraph Book of Great Railway Journeys says that they were gin bottles. Alansplodge (talk) 12:08, 18 October 2021 (UTC)


 * But, the contemporary The Railway Magazine, Volume 110 (1964) p. 527 says whisky, and the viewable text says: "On arrival at Kemble the coffin was, on payment of 18s. 3d., placed in the guard's van of the 8.15 p.m. train to Paddington, addressed to Dr. Beeching". I wasn't able to find anything else. Alansplodge (talk) 12:22, 18 October 2021 (UTC)


 * This article from The London Drinker, "the magazine from the London Branches of the Campaign for Real Ale", says: "It [the coffin] is believed to have made it as far as Paddington". Alansplodge (talk) 12:29, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Edmund Kean's date of birth
I asked a question @ Talk:Edmund Kean, but it has not exactly taken the interest of the world by storm.

Essentially, the same source for the date we have (4 November 1787) also gave an alternative date (17 March 1789). That later date appears in many online searches, without any mention of the earlier one. And vice-versa.

Has this ever been resolved? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:54, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * It's likely the first is date of birth and the second is date of Baptism which sacrament was considered more relevant then than now, at least partly due to the prevalence of perinatal deaths. Doug butler (talk) 22:25, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I doubt they'd wait a year and a half to get him baptised for that very reason, Doug. They normally did it within a few days. Chuntuk (talk) 16:06, 19 October 2021 (UTC)


 * ...scarcely possible to imagine the year of his birth to have been later than 1787.
 * Notwithstanding certain lausibilities to the contrary the parentage and birth-place of Edmund Kean are not involved in the slightest uncertainty. He was born on the 4th of November, 1787.
 * So far as there seems to be any weight of opinion in this none-too-important matter, that weight is for 1787
 * ...certainly 17th March, and the year was very probably 1789
 * I have accepted Professor Hillebrand's assessment...


 * Thanks, whoever posted these. Playfair is out of step with the others. He seems as certain of 1789 as the others are of 1787. How does this help matters? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  23:19, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Considering Playfair's argument, I think his case is strong, assuming he does not unfairly present a skewed image of the available evidence. --Lambiam 09:29, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The Cult of Kean (Introduction) by Jeffrey Kahan (2017), repeats Hillebrands comment on March 1789 or November 1787: "there is no reason to believe that either is correct", but also notes the numerous contradictory "yarns" about Kean's childhood. Alansplodge (talk) 13:32, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Absolutely right.  There is no evidence to believe that either November 1787 or March 1789 is correct.   Playfair writes:  "On 4th April, 1810, he sent a letter to Mrs Clarke that incidentally testified to his own belief that he was born on 17th March, 1789."   Obviously he gave his birthday as 17 March and the phrase "incidentally testified" indicates that it was Playfair who concluded the year was 1789.   The date was confirmed in the Rothesay Express of 28 June 1893 which printed a letter from Kean to Dr Gibson inviting him to dinner on 17th March to celebrate his birthday.
 * The year is equally certain - Hawkins (1869) says at p. 6 that his mother reclaimed him in November 1789 at the age of three.  His first appearance at Drury Lane (p. 7) was in late 1790.   A few months later (p. 7), therefore early in 1791, at the age of four, he appeared in Noverre's Cupid.   On 21 April that year he played the role of one of the goblins in Macbeth.    Encyclopaedia Britannica thus gives his date of birth as 17 March 1787. 2A00:23C6:2403:C400:59EC:5D53:BA2:5D2C (talk) 15:59, 19 October 2021 (UTC)


 * In case you don't have access, here's another: Kean, Edmund (1787–1833), actor, was born on 4 November 1787 [...] Kean's date of birth and parentage have both been disputed. Chuntuk (talk) 16:06, 19 October 2021 (UTC)