Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 October 26

= October 26 =

When did "case" of beer first mean 24 beers?
This section https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_Tatum#1938%E2%80%931949 refers to a musician drinking a "case" of beer a day. I am trying to pin down how many beers might have been in a case in the years mentioned. A fellow here https://www.quora.com/When-did-a-case-of-beer-first-refer-to-24-beers/answer/Keith-Ball-16 says that a "case" of beer first started meaning 24 beers after the First World War. But I would like a better source for that for the Wikipedia article.

Also, is this the best reference desk section to place this query? Greg Dahlen (talk) 11:21, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Not only how many beers in the case, but the size of each beer. DuncanHill (talk) 12:40, 26 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Not sure how reliable LiquorLand Toast magazine is, but there's the article "Crate Moments in History", which seems to claim it originated in 1917 New Zealand (12 bottles worth anyway). Clarityfiend (talk) 13:08, 26 October 2021 (UTC)


 * VINTAGE BASS CHARRINGTON BEER CRATE... holds 20 bottles - Bass Charrington was one of the "Big Six" British breweries from the 1960s to the 1980s when (if memory serves) it was rebranded. I don't remember being able to buy a "case" of beer retail in the 1970s when I started drinking, but I suppose it was a multiple of six-pack rings which appeared in the UK in the late '70s. If you wanted to drink a lot of beer back in the day, you went to a pub, or bought a Party Seven (140 fl.oz. can). Alansplodge (talk) 21:01, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
 * When I was 15 years old in 1967 in the suburbs of Detroit, I worked a summer job at what would now be called a convenience store but was then called a "party store" in Michigan. Bulk beer was sold in cases of 24 bottles of 12 ounces each. Part of my job was carrying cases to people's cars. Some of the cases were configured to hold four six-packs, each its own carton inside the case. This was before Six-pack rings were common. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  20:12, 27 October 2021 (UTC)


 * I don’t know when the usage began, but Pabst Blue Ribbon and other beers were sold in cases of 24 cans in 1938 (the date referenced in the article). See, for example, the advertisements in the (Chicago) Southeast Economist, Dec. 22, 1938, p. 3, and the Oak Park (Ill.) Oak Leaves, Dec. 22, 1938, p. 16 (both on NewspaperArchive). John M Baker (talk) 03:22, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Adding a ping in case you are no longer watching this page. John M Baker (talk) 03:27, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

The last parade of the Rhodesian Guard Force
A disagreement about the language of tents relating to a piece in the DYK section of the Front Page leads me to ask this. Bill Godwin was the Brigadier commanding Guard Force, and according to  "At the last parade of the force, he told his troops that it was time to quietly unfurl their tents and fade away". This is sourced to The Herald, Saturday 10 May 1980. Now, the question is essentially "did he say unfurl"? The usage seems at odds with the sense intended, which I think is something on the lines of Longfellow's "fold their tents, like the Arabs, And as silently steal away". I assume The Herald means The Rhodesia Herald. So - what did The Herald actually say (and I shall enquire at WP:RX for help with that), and are there any other reports of Godwin's last words to his men? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 13:02, 26 October 2021 (UTC)


 * This page (about halfway down in blue text) has a similar quote, given in a signal from Guard Force HQ in May 1980: "...now, the time has come to quietly unfurl your tents and fade away..." It is misattributed to Kipling. I suppose that before the internet, it would have been very difficult to fact-check quotes from half-remembered school English lessons. Alansplodge (talk) 20:42, 26 October 2021 (UTC)


 * BTW, every Scout knows that you pitch a tent on arrival and strike it on departure. Furling is only for flags as far as I know. Alansplodge (talk) 23:02, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Also umbrellas and sails. Perhaps the original writer had in the back of their mind the thought of a ship unfurling its sails in order to depart, and misused the word unconsciously. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.200.65.29 (talk) 07:38, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'd never heard furl or unfurl used about tents until I saw the item in question the other day, and I've done a lot of camping. I can't think of anything in Kipling that could have been misremembered in that way. I did consider Khayam, or at least Fitzgerald, but I can't see anything likely. He could have gone with "To your tents, O Israel: now see to thine own house, David", which surely a Rhodie Brigadier would have known. One can't help thinking of Wolfe at Quebec reciting the whole of Gray's Elegy on the eve of the battle, and deploring the literary decline in soldiery since. DuncanHill (talk) 13:34, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Of course, "fade away" is what what old soldiers do, which is appropriate here because the Guard Force was entirely composed of old soldiers. I had thought that the song might have been connected with Kipling, but it's a parody of an American hymn.  Alansplodge (talk) 23:34, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Importance of fishing industry in South China Sea
Good evening, I am working on a school paper about South China Sea, I do in-depth searches to quote and found valuable informations (maybe I'm too wikipedian ;). But after conscencious researches, I didn't managed to find a valuable number. I search how many peoples live from fishery from South China Sea. I think it should be pretty easy to find but... Could anyone find an anwser ? Thank you very much ! Nicolas de Bourgoing (talk) 14:25, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Edit (and awnser) : After few hours i figured out that it employs about (approximatively) 21 millions all around the SCS, mostly in Vietnam and China... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicolas de Bourgoing (talk • contribs) 17:13, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Murder and Helena Normanton
Our article Helena Normanton says she was "the first woman to lead the prosecution in a murder trial". What was the case? Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 14:36, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Papers of Helena Normanton In 1948 she was the first woman to prosecute in a murder trial (young soldier found guilty of murdering his wife) in the North-Eastern Circuit.
 * R v Sloan citing Daily Mail, 1 June 1948


 * (ec) Thank you - that detail helped me find reports in the British Newspaper Archive. The murderer was Robert Sloan, 33, a private in the Catering Corps. He was convicted and sentenced to death, but later found insane and committed to Broadmoor. DuncanHill (talk) 16:10, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

American post boxes
How does it work with the little flags? Is it up or down if there's post in it? Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 21:21, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
 * You put the flag up if you have outgoing mail. The mailman puts it down when he/she picks up the outgoing mail. --Trovatore (talk) 21:27, 26 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Similarly, the flag will be raised to show that mail has been delivered. Used in rural areas in other countries too. Demonstrated in The Lake House (film).--Shantavira|feed me 08:51, 27 October 2021 (UTC)


 * If the mail carrier picks up outgoing mail and delivers some incoming mail, do they lower and then raise the flag? Since there are at least three states (empty; outgoing mail; delivered mail), a binary signalling system is inadequate. --Lambiam 10:17, 27 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks all. It does seem rather a palaver and as Lambiam points out, somewhat confusing. DuncanHill (talk) 13:19, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * It is not confusing at all. The only purpose of the flag is for the resident to alert the mail carrier that there is outgoing mail in the box. The only time that the flag is up is if the box contains outgoing mail. This is so the carrier does not have to open the box if there is no incoming mail for that address that day. It is really basic. I have had this type of mailbox for many years and this simple system works just fine. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  16:25, 27 October 2021 (UTC)


 * I have never known the flag to be raised to show that mail has been delivered. Our article letter box and the Smithsonian source say that this was done in the past, but it must have been quite some time ago. The manual says that the letter carriers only lower the carrier signal flag, and never raise it.  Since many people don't collect their incoming mail for several days, this lets the carrier know whether any mail in the box should be taken or left where it is.  --Amble (talk) 16:43, 27 October 2021 (UTC)


 * I must say I always thought the flag was about deliveries, not collections, that is that the postie would put it up, or down, to signal that they had made a delivery. I hadn't really taken it in that you can send post from them. DuncanHill (talk) 18:08, 27 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Oh, I didn't realize that you can't send outgoing mail from your own mailbox in some countries! Some people put the flag up even when they don't have outgoing mail, just to see when the carrier has come. This works because the carrier will put it down regardless, but it might be considered rude or annoying: . What I used to do is look up and down the street. If any of the neighbors' mailboxes have a red flag up, the mail hasn't come yet, and if all the flags are down, it has probably already come. If you have a few mailboxes in view from your window, you will usually notice one flag up on a given morning, and then know that you should only go out to check the mail once that one has gone down. There is one thing that I wonder about, though: some people don't collect the incoming mail from their boxes very often. Does the mail carrier have to keep sorting through to see whether anything is outgoing? What do they do if the flag is up but there's still old incoming mail in the box? --Amble (talk) 19:06, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * We don't need to look, still less go, outside to see if the post has been. DuncanHill (talk) 19:31, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * But we Britons do have to go out to use a pillar box, which are nice red things with the Queen's initials on (or one of her ancestors). Perhaps it's the government's way of making us do some exercise? Alansplodge (talk) 23:25, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I have a hazy recollection that some people used to leave their outgoing mail tucked into the signal flag, instead of putting it inside. The manual still says "Carriers must collect mail placed adjacent to, in, or on private mail receptacles" . Leaving the outgoing mail outside would make sense to distinguish incoming and outgoing mail if the flag used to be used for both. --Amble (talk) 19:20, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Do you have rain-and-bird-proof envelopes then? DuncanHill (talk) 19:31, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I thought looking for proof of what happened to the Rainbirds was a quintessentially English phenomenon. --Amble (talk) 20:54, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I would assume it's a rare situation since if someone is checking their box to raise the signal flag, they're generally going to take the mail too. Especially since for those who are raising it just to check if the carrier has been they probably want to make sure what important mail they're waiting for hasn't already been delivered. And for those who are raising it because they have outgoing mail, they are unlikely to want to risk the carrier missing their outgoing mail in the incoming. And according to the above, the mail carrier doesn't raise the flag any more only lowers it after checking the box so the situation should only arise if the occupier of the house or someone fooling around raises the flag but leaves the incoming mail. Nil Einne (talk) 09:07, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

When we had mail delivered (in California) to a slot in the front door, out-going letters would be stuck into the gap between the door and the metal frame around the mail slot. DOR (HK) (talk) 19:32, 27 October 2021 (UTC)