Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 September 6

= September 6 =

Alternate wording for 'forced religious conversions'
Greetings,

Just I engaging in conversation @ one of concern article draft talk page.

Commonly used wording is 'Forced conversion' still if one takes nuanced view of conversion for example like the ones mentioned in this New York Times it is difficult to categories them in literal 'forced' ones but those are not straightforward conversions under theological convictions and conscience either. Some pressures are direct but many underlying pressures are indirect underplay, then there would be some allurements too involved, some prodding mixed with some fair some unfair pressures etc. Phenomena is complex enough to facilitate plausible deniability about the unfair conditions which lead to such conversions. Hence whether a better word or phrase in place 'forced' (without succumbing to original research) which may take into account such complex phenomena into account can be suggested?

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 06:53, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Compulsory conversion? 2602:24A:DE47:B8E0:1B43:29FD:A863:33CA (talk) 19:46, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Hmm. Compel is a synonym for force, so that means almost exactly the same thing - except a person can experience a compulsion which comes from within, and carry out a compulsive act as a result. How about "compulsive conversion"? Or is that getting too original? Has to be something idiomatic I guess. Oh, another possibility: coercive conversion. Card Zero  (talk) 00:44, 7 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Coercive, unwilling, unnecessary (?) …. DOR (HK) (talk) 00:50, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I am taking note suggestions being received here and later will link to talk page discussion. Thanks for various inputs and warm regards &#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 10:07, 7 September 2021 (UTC)


 * There is some usage of the term 'conversion pressure', which would seem to be wider in scope than 'forced conversion'. --Amble (talk) 19:16, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

"Involuntary..."? Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:15, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Satan is a good angel?
this is obviously not what most Abrahamic religions believe..however, if Satan is a good angel, what is the Jewish religious view..is it ok to speak with him, ask for advice?.after all, angels spoke with many of the old Israelite patriarchs.. Gfigs (talk) 07:15, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * In Biblical passages where Satan is not described as evil his job appears to be to test and trick people. If this is the case any advice you got would not necessarily be straight forward "good" advice, whatever the motive. -- Q Chris (talk) 07:51, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * that seems dishonest..even possibly evil?. is it fair to call God such things. eg an earthquake for example? Gfigs (talk) 08:40, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not a Christian or a Jew, but from my view if taken literally the story of Job does make God sound dishonest and evil. -- Q Chris (talk) 08:44, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * thanks.. Gfigs (talk) 09:08, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * what about the natural world..disease, old age, natural disasters..what is the Jewish religious belief?. is man to blame, an angel, or the "creator"?. Gfigs (talk) 09:02, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * the original sin?.who was the serpent, and how was he involved?. Gfigs (talk) 09:21, 6 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Whereas I can't answer your specific question Problem of evil may be of interest to you. -- Q Chris (talk) 09:47, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * thank you.. Gfigs (talk) 10:22, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * it might be that in Judaism the serpent was the yetzer hara (evil inclination)..although it's not clear whether Adam and Eve were created with this, and why.possibly to test their obedience?.the verses in Job seem to speak of a "destroying" angel?.however i would like to still be able to speak with him, in hope that he don't arrange an incident such as Bathsheba..(or worse)..and blame me?.Gfigs (talk) 10:43, 6 September 2021 (UTC)


 * It's my opinion that the Eden snake is just a snake. The text doesn't tell us much else about it. Snakes had some kind of power, though. There were the snake figures that Moses put up and later Hezekiah torn them down, IIRC. Who knows if there's any connection with Genesis. But I can promise you that you don't have to worry at all about these forces coming down to mess with you personally. Ask any religious expert whose opinion you can trust, and they'll tell you the same. Temerarius (talk) 22:54, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * As far as I am aware, the association between the Serpent in Eden and Satan was first made in Revelation, which would have been written hundreds of years after the first story was originally written down ( and about 4000 years after the events supposedly happened ). So I'm inclined to agree with you: the snake is just a snake, and the Eden story was likely intended as a "just so story" to explain why life is hard and snakes don't have legs. Iapetus (talk) 10:05, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * thanks Temerarius, interesting thoughts..yes i wonder who the serpent was, and what the intended meaning of this story might have been when Genesis was written?. Gfigs (talk) 23:16, 6 September 2021 (UTC)


 * One angel always tells the truth, the other always lies; you may ask one question —Tamfang (talk) 01:15, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:50, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * according to the Christian Greek Scriptures, Satan is the "father of the lie"..why does he hardly appear in the Hebrew Scriptures?.. Gfigs (talk) 02:00, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * the Latter Day Saints (KJV) Bible footnote to 2 Samuel 24:1 says : "Apparently something is missing, and “Satan” should be the antecedent of “he.”..it refers to a parallel verse in 1 Chronicles 21:1 Gfigs (talk) 02:20, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * If you're looking for a "good" Satan, or at least not necessarily an "evil" Satan, you could try reading Mark Twain's book, The Mysterious Stranger. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:52, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * thanks, will check this out.. Gfigs (talk) 07:10, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * if God destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah, it's possible that Naftali Bennett will destroy the Israeli LGBT Association?. Gfigs (talk) 07:31, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Now you drift away from where we can point you to reliable sources. We can’t predict the future. Blueboar (talk) 13:16, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Gay stuff isn't the reason Sodom and Gomorrah were punished. Temerarius (talk) 18:51, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Sodom and Gomorrah were punished for various sins. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:11, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Unlike God, Bennett will eventually have to stand for re-election. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:47, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * and will also have to work with the Alternate PM of Israel former TV Presenter Yair Lapid.. Gfigs (talk) 14:14, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm confused, OP: do you want to discuss the original question of this thread or is this just a springboard to provide context to talk about Israeli/contemporary Jewish politics? If the latter, please bear in mind WP:NOTAFORUM: we aren't here to engage in open ended discussion, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who is a little concerned about your ultimate end here after the Soddom and Gomorrah = LGBT comment in particular. Our remit really only let's us provide answers in the form of sources, or if the discussion stays focused on a factual inquiry, information that helps contextualize your question.  That said, I will AGF and assume that your original question remains the topic you are most interested in exploring, and I'll add another wrinkle that you may find interesting: it does not concern just Jewish interpretations of Satan's status as a source of revelation, but it does concern the other part of your question: Satan's role in theodicy:


 * You started your question by stating that Abrahamic religions do not regard Satan as a benign figure. While this is certainly true as a generalization that holds for the vast majority of contemporary Christians, it is not an entirely universal truism, especially if we go back some time. Christianity developed not just from a syncretic fusion with other Abrahamic religions, but other faiths as well, and in the first few centuries of it's existence one of the religious traditions that most repeatedly cross-pollinated with Christianity (and indeed, Judaism as well) was Gnosticism. From Gnosticism, certain branches of Christianity inherited the concept of the demiurge, a being who is omnipotent to the extent of having complete control over all physical existence, but who stands between humans and true gnosis (personal understanding and revelation) of the actual supreme God, who stands outside the physical world and cannot be understood through any device or means derived from that world. And Satan often became the figure identified as the demiurge in this hybrid cosmogony.


 * As with gnosticism in general, views among Gnostic Christians and Jews varied with regard to Satan/the demiurge's status as the source of evil: some theological frameworks feature him as the ultimate corruption--a gaoler who keeps all of humanity and every hope of salvation in the prison of the physical world, which is no less catastrophic an evil for the fact that he has every power over it that is traditionally attributed to God. Some of these schools go further to suggest that the entity traditional worshiped as the God of the Judaism and the source of revelation and dogma for the Abrahamic religions is in fact Satan. Other doctrines viewed him as essentially as much trapped by the situation as any mortal: Satan believes he is God, but is as confused and misled by his limitations as anyone;  this conception of the demiurge was also not unheard of in ancient gnosticism generally.  Still other traditions held that Satan as the 'God of the World' might even be a loving and benevolent demiurge, but that makes him all the more a calamity, because he is still standing between humankind and true connection with the real God, who is the only possible escape from the physical world, which can only ultimately trap every soul in misery.


 * These fusional beliefs remained a significant counterpoint in Christian theology for about its first millennia and a half, but began to fade around the 15th century from a combination of persecution (see, for example Cathars) and historical accident. But they remain a part of the fabric of the Abrahamic religions--although it is worth noting that unlike Christianity where the bidirectional relationship is more or less considered established fact, the question of interplay between Gnosticism and Judaism is somewhat more controversial when it comes to the details. I can tell you that, despite the fact that it was the Catholic church that (in large part) left the Gnostic Christian denominations reeling, I've known Catholics who consider Satan the God of the physical world and view him as a mostly blameless part of the process of faith--a gatekeeper, if you will, in the path of redemption. Needless to say, this view diverges significantly from mainstream Christian dogma in most of the world (to the point where I think most Christians probably go a lifetime without ever becoming familiar with these traditions), but these views have managed to avoid complete annihilation by somehow taking root in branches of some of the same religions which sought to expunge it by the sword: a very peculiar (if not entirely novel) arrangement. SnowRise let's rap 06:05, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * , bear in mind that the word "satan" is a Hebrew common noun found in the Bible, meaning "adversary"..I don't really know how it became a personal name? I think the Hebrew Bibles definition of sexual immorality, is reason why the LGBT question in Israel is relevant..if Satan is a good angel employed by God to test loyal Jews, then there is proof he is doing so with sexual immorality in Tel Aviv..suffice to cite Deputy mayor of Tel Aviv Chen Arieli..now if he is an evil angel, as per Christian and Islamic belief, then there is going to be lot of extra news on TV, Facebook, Twitter, that is going to filter through onto Wikipedia..this is not really covered in books on theology, and probably wasn't a good question to ask here..so am withdrawing this question now, thanks for everyones participation..have a good day.. Gfigs (talk) 22:06, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I hope we helped a little bit. I didn't see your earlier @ to me, you can message me if you want me to point you to some experts on the S&G question. Temerarius (talk) 23:26, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * many thanks..question is now closed here..Gfigs (talk) 03:35, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

A spoon down the throat
In Ken Loach's film Black Jack a character survives hanging by lodging a bent spoon in his windpipe, thereby defeating the strangulation effect of the noose. Is there any evidence that anyone actually tried this, and if so did it work? --Viennese Waltz 08:16, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It sounds very unlikely. In the 1700's they weren't yet using the "long drop" where the condemned's neck was broken (spoon or no spoon), but even with a short drop it isn't necessarily constriction of the windpipe that kills you - the rope also constricts the blood vessels leading to the brain, that will kill you too Chuntuk (talk) 10:19, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Agreed. In Judo, there's a distinction between choking (compressing the windpipe to cause asphyxia) and strangling (compressing the arteries in the neck to cut-off the blood supply to the brain). Our chokehold article has more detail. While having a spoon in your windpipe might conceivably help with the first, it couldn't possibly prevent the second. Alansplodge (talk) 10:31, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Our hanging article has the primary effect as: "Closure of carotid arteries causing cerebral hypoxia". Alansplodge (talk) 10:33, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * So, in contrast to the usual cliché, you could die with a silver spoon in your mouth. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:29, 6 September 2021 (UTC)


 * I'll note in passing that Tony in The Imaginarium of Doctor Parnassus used a similar trick, but with a metal tube. —Tamfang (talk) 01:12, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I seem to recall that a similar ploy was used in an episode of Murdoch Mysteries, probably Season 3 Episode 37. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.209.121.112 (talk) 01:33, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note that these examples all seem to be fictional. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:16, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, the metal tube would need to be on the outside of your neck to be of any use. Anti-strangulation collars were the vogue during the London garrotting panics of the mid-19th century. Alansplodge (talk) 20:18, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

This links to an article on "Survival After Judicial Hanging". You have to pay to read it online, but the abstract is shown, and it reads in part: "Although several cases have been reported to survive after the attempted suicidal/accidental hanging, to the extent of our knowledge, no modern case of survival after judicial hanging exists. We reported a case of an individual who revived after modern judicial hanging despite being declared dead... The victim received all the standard supportive intensive care and gained complete clinical recovery." However, the article is limited to modern judicial hanging, cf. Chuntuk's remark above. --184.144.99.72 (talk) 05:40, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Ethnicity Statistics for American Library Association (ALA) Council
What are the ethnicity statistics for all members fo the American Library Association (ALA) Council as of 2021. Note, I am not referring to members of the ALA as a whole, rather members of the ALA Council specifically.2601:648:8800:E040:D57A:79C5:73CE:DDDE (talk) 21:00, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Again? DOR (HK) (talk) 00:53, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think anybody has collated statistics as such (at least not that I'm aware of), but you can make a fair guess at council members' ethnicity by looking at the list of council members, and their appearance and/or names. Alternatively, I suppose, you can email the association and ask? Eliyohub (talk) 09:04, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Court-martial offence
Walter Yates (cricketer) was dismissed from the RAF during the Second World War, but apparently the offence wasn't too severe, as he was taken back. However, the London Gazette doesn't say why he got the boot. Can someone enlighten me? Clarityfiend (talk) 22:52, 6 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Why are you heading this "court-martial offence" when everything you say suggests it was not of that severity? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:54, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Because he was court martialled, as the article states and the London Gazette attests. Nanonic (talk) 23:55, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed "Plt. Off. W. G. YATES (133694) is dismissed the Service by sentence of General Court Martial, 1st May 1943." {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.209.121.112 (talk) 01:39, 7 September 2021 (UTC)


 * I found out that he was aka Steve Yates in case anyone can dig up a local newspaper article. Nanonic (talk) 00:24, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It must have been rather serious to get rid of a trained pilot in the middle of a war. Alansplodge (talk) 20:20, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * No luck so far, but I found a photo of him here (centre) while posted to Burma, which many would have considered punishment enough. Alansplodge (talk) 20:36, 7 September 2021 (UTC)