Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 September 7

= September 7 =

Turkish reference help needed
Greetings,

The Draft:Avret Esir Pazarları about non-elite common women slavery in ottoman times is under development. Circassian women were among prime victims in those times still Circassian women author's own writings in English seem to be too limited. One latest (open access PDF) research paper discussing 'Circassian Nationalism, Feminism and Slavery in the Writings of Hayriye Melek Hunç' seems to have become available. But this research paper is in Turkish language so I am looking for help to find out if the research paper has any details about non-elite common women slavery in ottoman times, and if yes then need help in taking note of the same in Draft:Avret Esir Pazarları.

Thanks and warm regards

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 10:31, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Hello, . Have you thought of asking for help at WT:TURKEY? --ColinFine (talk) 12:29, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Verifying wartime Russian excesses
Many types of cruelties and excesses against women in peace time and war time may be real too. Historically what all Circassian women gone through too is saddening and one gets speechless while reading; Crimean, Turks and Russians known to have done immense excesses. While on one hand some times cruelties against women are so underplayed exposing becomes challenging and other hand there are opposite examples of over the board descriptions.

Just recently @ WP Women in Red I discussed one such example of over the board description of Russian excesses against German women. Just now I come across one over the board description of Russian excesses against Circassian women @ Circassia. The sentence goes as bellow:
 * It has been recorded that Russian soldiers used various methods such as tearing the belly of pregnant women and removing the baby inside 'to entertain themselves'. I find the wording "to entertain themselves" bit doubt full needing verification.

There is one reference after next sentence and I am not sure how to verify this ref.

May be some one can help in verification.

Thanks and warm regards

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 12:10, 7 September 2021 (UTC)


 * In the WW2 Soviet campaign in Eastern Europe and Germany, it was notorious that the spearhead troops were elite and well-disciplined, while the second and third echelons were much lower quality in terms of military organization, and some of them practiced rape on a mass scale. Many of the soldiers in such formations were not actually ethnic Russians... AnonMoos (talk) 16:10, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
 * What I mentioned only seems to be covered on Wikipedia in two sentences of the Battle_of_Berlin article, but there could be a lot more said about it. I remember reading an account of a fanatical German female Communist who hid out in an old windmill or something during the last few weeks or months of the war.  When she came out as the advancing Soviet troops finally arrived, they raped her... AnonMoos (talk) 20:57, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Draft:Women, conflict and conflict zones and Draft:Sexual politics over women bodies all are serious topics, historically there seem to be number of anecdotes about excess on pregnant women as part of unfortunate  Wartime  violence against women. It's difficult what kind of people used to indulge in those. Human hate, anger, retribution etc. may be leading to such things.

Still I find even any extreme villain would entertain oneself with fetus from a pregnant woman to be bit far fetched.

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 18:37, 7 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Don't know why you pinged me when your remarks had no real relevance to what I said. AnonMoos (talk) 22:06, 7 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Mutilation of pregnant women/babies seems to be one of the standard accusations levelled at soldiers of enemy nations. See, for example, the Rape of Belgium by Germany for a lot of similar stories. I'm not saying that rapes and murders did not happen in Circassia (and Belgium!), but if we're going to repeat these lurid tales we need a decent source for them. The passage in question reads "It has been recorded that Russian soldiers used various methods such as tearing the belly of pregnant women and removing the baby inside to entertain themselves. Some Russian generals, such as Grigory Zass, argued that the killing of the Circassians and their use in scientific experiments should be allowed." None of this is verified by the cited source. At the very least it needs a "citation needed", but I'd be tempted to removed it altogether and start a discussion in the talk page.Chuntuk (talk) 22:15, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes I do agree, Thanks. &#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 07:45, 8 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Note that in our Cambodian genocide article we have a referenced statement that "Tortures were not only meant to force prisoners to confess but for the prison guards' amusement". However, I agree that a citation needed tag and a talk page discussion is the way forwards. Alansplodge (talk) 10:10, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

The use of "amusement" and "entertainment" in those circumstances is problematic on a couple of levels. My impression is that we're trying to separate those actions from other actions which may have been officially sanctioned or even ordered. In which case, we could use something like "done of their own volition" or "done without official approval" or something along those lines. But it does go a little deeper than that. Forgetting the war angle entirely for a bit, speaking to a person's state of mind is always going to be guesswork. Does a rapist "do it for entertainment"? We could only say by reading their minds. Again, it would be better to re-phrase to describe the situation rather than assuming the state of minds of people. "This happened under X and Y conditions." Matt Deres (talk) 15:47, 8 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Citation in Grigory Zass to what appears to be a lament tren. fiveby(zero) 04:02, 9 September 2021 (UTC)


 * User:Bookku, the whole topic of this supposed Victorian-era "genocide" is one of the notorious fakes of the English Wikipedia (alongside the Douma chemical attack, in which case the BBC fired the perpetrators, and many similar articles). You'd better consult more neutral sources in other languages. --Ghirla-трёп- 21:42, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Though Russian Circassian conflict is not my top editing agenda but while researching Balck sea slave trade one keeps coming across several refs related to Russian Circassian conflict and there is no point in denial of complex and uncomfortable history of war time excesses still those need to be covered in nuanced and balanced ways. Thanks &#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 12:18, 11 September 2021 (UTC)