Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 December 15

= December 15 =

Questions about two French zoologists
I am writing about the history of the discovery of the honey possum. first scientifically described by Paul Gervais and Jules Verreaux. Appears in many wikipedias, Verreaux went on a collecting expedition to Australia in 1842 and stayed there for several years. Now, on the one hand, the honey possum was scientifically described on January 11, 1842. On the other hand, it appears that its holotype were collected by Verreaux in Australia. If so, it must be that Verreaux visited Australia before 1842, or the holotype of the honey possum were brought from Australia by someone else to his family's collection company ("Maison Verreaux"). The first question is: Verreaux visited Australia before 1842? If not, then why is he listed as the person who brought the holotype of honey possum?

The second question: appears in the scientific descriptions of John Edward Gray, to whom Gervais showed the scientific description of the possum, and Gervais also presented them at the meeting of the Zoological Society in London (on January 11, 1842). My question, is it known what was the purpose of his trip to London, and how long did he stay there? מנחם.אל (talk) 12:52, 15 December 2022 (UTC)


 * According to Australian National Herbarium Biographical Notes, Verreaux arrived in Australia in December 1842. Alansplodge (talk) 13:07, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Paris Museum specimens, as Tarsipes rostratus, were described by M. Paul Gervais who, in his own name and that of M. Jules Verreaux, read a lengthy description and presented illustrations at the Scientific Meeting of the Zoological Society of London on January 11, 1842.
 * It's not clear from this how the "specimens" (presumably dead ones) arrived in Paris. Alansplodge (talk) 13:14, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * indeed. I have read this document and other documents (Gray's description, Gervais' description), And it is still not clear to me whether Verreaux collected the specimens. Here however, It says that the 3 specimens (Male, female and young) were collected (״Recorded״) by Verreaux. מנחם.אל (talk) 13:47, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * On the specimens  of the honey possums, there is a note with a description of  specimens  that I can't read most of it... maybe there is a solution there....מנחם.אל (talk) 13:54, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Here's the original The Proceedings of the Zoological Society of London. It still doesn't say who collected the specimens, but it does sound that they were studying them in Paris before the 1842 trip. It also has a long description, is this what you wanted? Short quote: “M.P. Gervais exhibited a drawing representing the details of a new genus of Marsupial animals, and communicated to the Meeting, in his own name and that of M. Jules Verreaux, the description of this new Mammal, which formed part of a collection brought from Swan River” and “…In Paris there are several specimens of this singular animal…”70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:28, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Provenance : Australie, Swan River, acquis en février 1838. from National Museum of Natural History, France catalog. le Tarsipes rostratus vient du pays que traverse la rivière des Cygnes (Swan river) ; et quoique l'individu que nous avons eu à notre disposition eût été préparé pour être monté, et qu'il fût privé, par conséquent, de ses viscères et d'une grande partie de son squelette, ceux de ses caractères que nous avons observés nous ont paru justifier les réflexions qui précèdent fiveby(zero) 18:41, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Mahoney is mentioned in the text but not cited, you might try WP:RX for fiveby(zero) 19:12, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I was able to get access to Mahoney's text a few days ago. Although he does not indicate there the source of the specimens. This line: Provenance : acquis en février 1838. definitely promotes me. In addition, I found the following passage yesterday: En février 1838 un Monsieur Jules VERREAUX, taxidermie et Aide-Naturaliste du Muséum d’Histoire Naturelle à Paris, cherchais des spécimens à rapatrier et éventuellement à vendre en France et il retourner avec un Possum à Miel empaillé from here. I sent an email to the researcher, trying to better understand what happened. Verreaux seems to have acquired the specimens in France from some collection coming from Australia for the French Museum. מנחם.אל (talk) 08:08, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The web page of the Narional History Museum states that the collection event was recorded by Verreaux. I suppose this need not mean that Verreaux personally collected the specimen; merely that he is given as the source of information regarding the location. --Lambiam 08:09, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Persée, Gallica, and Trove out to yield something more, but i am too tired to search in French or Australian. fiveby(zero) 08:23, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * fr:wp tells us that Verraux returned to Cape Town in 1825 and remained there thirteen years, thus till 1838.  During this time he was assiduously collecting specimens.   The first landfall travelling east from South Africa is the Swan River area of Western Australia (and vice versa).   There is a lot of travel between them (indeed Cottesloe, on the Indian Ocean between Fremantle and Perth is identically named to a suburb of Johannesburg).   We may assume that this interchange led to Verraux learning of and securing possession of the newly discovered fauna before embarking for Paris. 92.5.53.185 (talk) 11:33, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The advantageous position of the Swan River relatively to Mauritius has certainly been discussed; see that report (pamphlet) from 1835. --Askedonty (talk) 14:22, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * If I'm it reading well in the 1874 Bulletin de la Société d'acclimatation, 3°série Tome1 the related "Nouvelle Hollande" collections came to the Museum brought by Mr Gould (p42). --Askedonty (talk) 11:55, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * According to JOHN GOULD - Papers, 1835-76 (p. 2 of 7), John Gould (1804-1881) arrived in Hobart, Tasmania from England in September 1838. Travelling with Gould was his assistant John Gilbert, who was sent independantly to the Swan River Colony in February 1839, where he collected numerous specimens of previously unknown birds and a few mammals that were later sent on to Gould who was in Sydney. However, a date of February 1838 is at least a year too early for either Gould or Gilbert. Alansplodge (talk) 13:38, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * It's certainly not of direct concern to all of those who are more interested in the 2022 United Nations Biodiversity Conference, but there is in fact less names to be checked from the arrival lists to Perth until 1838 than there are for the 5,500 species of living synapsids, also known as the mammals (Synapsids)  ---Askedonty (talk) 20:22, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Verreux could have travelled from South Africa to Western Australia and back, but it's a journey of several months and would have been documented - reports of his 1842 trip would have mentioned he had been there before. 146.199.206.38 (talk) 11:16, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * A plausible explanation is that the February 1838 date is a typo or transcription error for February 1839, which would then fit with Gilbert's expedition to Western Australia. However, I haven't been able to find anything which confirms that, or that the possum was amongst the small mammal specimens sent by Glibert to Gould, but it doesn't seem unlikley. Alansplodge (talk) 12:31, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's a typo. Gould wrote in his book "The Mammals of Australia (1845)" that after he heard about the honey possum scientifically described by Verreaux  and Gervais, he wrote a letter to Gilbert and asked him to find samples of the honey possum and send them to him (which actually happened) מנחם.אל (talk) 18:07, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * @Alansplodge: The problem you have is that the MNHN says the material was acquired in February 1838 from Verreux, who we know travelled from South Africa with specimens that year.  It is unlikely that Gilbert or Gould would have passed material they had obtained at much time and expense to a French museum.   Also, a twelve month delay is insufficient to make any difference.   Gilbert didn't actually reach WA until March 1839 - he left Tasmania on 4 February and reached Fremantle on 6 March.   The first British specimens left Australia for England with Gould on 9 April 1840 and arrived in May.   Gilbert only reached Sydney on 30 April - he worked in the Northern Territory for a while and didn't reach England till after the death of Gould's wife on 15 August 1841.   The fact that a French museum had examples of the new fauna from WA and a British one didn't may have been the reason why Gould and Gibson travelled to Australia in the first place, with Gibson detailed to search in WA while Gould remained in the east. 146.199.206.38 (talk) 18:28, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * (Not exactly so) They all had contracts, for example Gilbert from Gould, that they would be interested on the benefits obtained from sales made from material not required for the precise program of work, that's, precisely targeted studies, and publishing. --Askedonty (talk) 19:39, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Something interesting is written here: when Verreux  joined the French museum as a "traveling naturalist" he ״donated his collection of mammals and birds to the museum״. Alansplodge, Is it known the exact date on which Verreux  received the position of "traveling naturalist" at the French Museum? If it's in 1841, that could explain a lot (Verreux acquired the specimens as early as 1838, but the scientific description wasn't published until early 1842! And even then, not by a single zoologist, but together with Verreux. It could be that the specimens were with him between 1838 and 1841 and then donated by him to the museum after he joined). מנחם.אל (talk) 13:37, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Did you see in Gervais & Verreaux 1842 p. 5 On a reçu à Paris, depuis plusieurs années, différents exemplaires de cette curieuse espèce de Mammifère. Would depuis plusieurs années imply earlier than 1838? has Both at the Swan River, and earlier at Port Jackson, the first arrivals among the settlers and Government officials exhibited a remarkable zest for natural history inquiry. It looks like there is more on botany and ornithology available, but  looks promising. fiveby(zero) 16:04, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Fun reading, but no help really beyond Many of the early settlers collected specimens and transmitted them to England and other countries of Europe and a few mentions of "opossums". fiveby(zero) 16:29, 18 December 2022 (UTC)