Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 December 20

= December 20 =

Can anyone identify the boy in this photograph?
I'm trying to get the article Charles Edward, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha ready for good article status and it would be nice to include a picture of him as a child though I can't find any that identify him on the commons. I've found this picture of his mother with her family taken in 1896 or 1897. He isn't listed as one of the people in the image but would have been around the same age as the boy in the front who looks quite similar to the earliest picture he's identified in (which is the first one in the body of his article). Does anyone know if the boy could be him? Llewee (talk) 02:24, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * I found some person on a forum in 2006 asserting that it is him. (forum page 6) "The boy in front is Alice's brother Charles Edward, Duke of Albany and later Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha." But they don't give a reason for thinking that. On the same forum I found this photo with "Leopolds kids" in the URL but there was no text or explanation alongside it.
 * This copy of the group portrait has "Oct 1895" written on it, by the way. Card Zero  (talk) 07:57, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Here a source identifies the boy as "prince of Albany" and the girl as "princess of Albany". According to our articles, prince Charles Edward was duke of Albany while his sister princess Alice was indeed princess of Albany, but this is close enough to count IMO as a positive identification. The source is apparently reliable and knowledgeable enough for the Netherlands Institute for Art History to deem this fit for inclusion on their web page. --Lambiam 08:25, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * This earlier photo suggests that it may well be the same boy. Alansplodge (talk) 12:17, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * If the caption of that photo is correct, the boy in that photo is definitely Charles Edward, and thus pictures him as a child clearly younger than on the 1895 family portrait. The facial resemblances of all three sitters with those of the mother and children in the family portrait are striking and IMO sufficiently strong to rule out any remaining doubt. --Lambiam 18:34, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks everyone, I'll update the commons page of the image and its copies based on the conclusions of this discussion and then add it to his article.--Llewee (talk) 21:24, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Wishing "Merry Christmas" in a US internet community
What would be the perfect time to wish everybody "Merry Christmas" in a US-dominated internet community, including a little gift (image, video...)? --KnightMove (talk), 04:10, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * , if it is a Christian religious internet community, any time in the next five days is fine. If it is a secular community, "Happy Holidays" may be better. There are likely to be significant numbers of Muslim, Jewish, Hindu and atheist participants, who may or may not observe the secular Xmas. I happen to be an American Jew who is bemused rather than bothered by the presumption that I am all excited about another religion's holiday, but some people do get irritated. Cullen328 (talk) 08:11, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * If you're quick, "Happy Holidays" may be taken to include Hanukkah, which already started but isn't over yet. The wish will also include Kwanzaa. --Lambiam 09:09, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * It might be appropriate to include some images that symbolise Christmas in your country. I was surprised (although thinking about it, I probably shouldn't have been) when some German visitors told me that robins and holly, icons of the British festive season, have no connection with Christmas in their country. Alansplodge (talk) 11:24, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Interesting. At least in my part of the US, it is the Northern cardinal that has associations with Christmas. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:31, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * , I was raised Christian in a predominately Christian country, making it hard for me to consider the viewpoint of minority religions, so the following observation should probably come with a 'may be talking out of his backside' health warning. Nevertheless: I've never understood why non-Christians would be bothered or irritated by being wished a merry Christmas. I wouldn't be remotely offended if a Jewish friend wished me a happy Hanukkah, in fact I think I'd feel honoured. Same goes for Diwali, Songkran, or any of the Eids. If anyone wants to offer me greetings and wish me well at what is a special time of year for them, I'll thank them for it. Girth Summit  (blether)  13:45, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I was raised agnostic in the same nominally (and now minority) Christian country, and now loosely follow neo-pagan traditions without taking them literally. I agree that simple good wishes, even if couched in specific religious terms, are non-offensive and should be responded to in kind (perhaps with an unobtrusive pagan slant). What I do find offensive is expectations that I will participate in explicitly Christian observances (invisible neo-paganism aside, I might after all be Jewish, as some of my friends and in-laws are). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.194.245.235 (talk) 16:13, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * My brother often goes to a big shindig to mark Beltane - he has in the past called me late on in the festivities (ie when he's three sheets to the wind) to wish me well. No offence was taken! Girth Summit  (blether)  16:30, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * For the very traditional… Christmas STARTS on December 25th and continues until January 6th (Epiphany/Three Kings day/twelfth night)… ie “the 12 days of Christmas”.
 * However, people do tend to look at you funny if you are still wishing them a “Merry Christmas” after New Years Eve. Blueboar (talk) 12:32, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * But given that many people will spend their time with the family on 25th and therefore will be online to a lesser extent, a posting with a 'gift' would best be sent on the 24th - am I right with this?
 * As a context for the answers above: I plan to write a posting with a dedicated Christmas reference (although a somewhat humorous one) in a secular group (which does not see this as a problem, either way). --KnightMove (talk) 12:53, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Sending it on Christmas Eve will be fine. (I just find it amusing to send them on January 3rd, and see who get confused) Blueboar (talk) 13:17, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * For the VERY traditional, Christmas starts at sundown on the 24th. As to a generic expression, in addition to "Happy Holidays" there's the even more generic "Season's Greetings". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:57, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * I don't know how it's in your country, but in mine (Netherlands) the 10–15% of the people who consider themselves Protestant object against the term Kerstmis (literally Christ mass), as the Protestants have no mass. They use Kerstfeest (Christ celebration) instead. The somewhat more common Roman-Catholics do use the word Kerstmis (Christ mass), as they do have a mass. The non-religious (the majority), Muslims (5%) and adherents of other religions (5%) don't really care what name one uses and many join in with the secular aspects of the event. So the exact word could matter. The neutral word here is Kerstdagen (Christ days). And of course, some people completely ignore it and just see it as an extra day off from work – except this year, as it's a weekend, so people had a day off anyway. Except the many who have to work on Christmas. PiusImpavidus (talk) 17:08, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Or people lop the tail off and use just : "zo wordt gourmetten deze kerst nog leuker". --Lambiam 18:57, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * In the US we only get a pitiful 11 (10 before 2021) unevenly-spaced and cold or hot weather biased federal holidays per year (Jan 1, 1 day of Jan 15-21, 1 day of Feb 15-21, 1 day of May 25-31, June 19 (new), July 4, 1 day of Sep 1-7, 1 day of Oct 8-14, Nov 11, 1 day of Nov 22-28 and Dec 25) but at least the work break gets transferred to the nearest weekday if it's a weekend. But if a Scrooge demands you work 8 hours every weekday you can get fired for not doing that unless you work for a federally-chartered bank or a government that recognizes these holidays. And Easter, Easter Monday, Good Friday, Maundy Thursday, Ash Wednesday, Mardi Gras, Hanukkah Days 1 through 8, Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah, Purim, Christmas Eve,
 * New Year's Eve, Boxing Day, Kwanzaa Days 2 though 6 (a common time off cause it's Dec 26-31), Eid 1, Eid 2, Ramadan Day 1, Hindu holidays like Holi, Buddhist holidays, Super Bowl Sunday, Halloween, St. Patrick's Day (the Columbus Day of Irish-Americans which outnumber the Italian-Americans), Election Day, the Friday after Thanksgiving, the Wednesday before which is the traditional day to fly or drive up to 3,000 miles to eat Thanksgiving together with adult children etc who don't live with Mom anymore,
 * none of those are federal holidays. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:13, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * As an aside, what many people don't realize is that when they say "happy holidays", what they're actually saying is "happy holy days"; which, although respectful of all religions, would be equally "offensive" to (some) atheists. 136.56.52.157 (talk) 18:12, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Here is Richard Dawkins of all people wishing us Merry Holidays. British atheists go without qualms "on holiday". For the rest, beware of the etymological fallacy. --Lambiam 18:44, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, it originally meant "holy days" but it's no longer restricted to religious observances. But that original usage was the source of Henny Youngman's joke: "I was an atheist for a while, but I gave it up. No holidays!" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:16, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Curious that Dawkins would use the "holidays" term, as it is really only used in a Christmas context in Coca-Cola adverts here in the UK. Alansplodge (talk) 22:30, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I thought "holiday" was British for "vacation"? Is it different in the plural? --Trovatore (talk) 23:37, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * "Holiday" in British use can be either a feast day or a vacation. See for example the kicker "Christmas and New Year holidays" of this page in The Grauniad, while here May Day is referred to as "this holiday". And then there are the bank holidays, the British term for public holidays. In either sense, the term can be singular or plural. --Lambiam 08:34, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * In British usage, it's generally understood to mean time off school or work. Schools have Christmas holidays, Easter (or spring) holidays, summer holidays and several half-term holidays. If you asked in an job interview; "what are the holidays like", it would be assumed that you were asking about paid leave. We also go "on holiday" which is taking a vacation. Alansplodge (talk) 14:24, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Here's an article from an American Jew on the subject .  Spain is quite a religious country and they appear to wish people "Happy Christmas", but across the border in Portugal, which is no less religious, the greeting is Boas festas (happy holidays).   After Christmas it becomes simply Feliz ano novo (happy new year). 2A00:23C4:570A:601:E1F1:B501:4B61:3168 (talk) 13:10, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Do London schools that Americans would call public get Rosh Hashanahs and Yom Kippurs off? When I was in (New York City) school was closed those days (even if you weren't Jewish). Do London secular schools get any Muslim or Hindu holidays off? Or even Buddhist? (I'd guess number of Muslim students in London>number of Hindu students>number of Buddhist but not sure). Does the free London government school system get St. Patrick's Day off? And a day for Scotland and a day for Wales? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:50, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * No. None of those. Alansplodge (talk) 13:12, 23 December 2022 (UTC)


 * I didn't know till today that the Guardian newspaper had an alternative name which sounded vaguely menacing - the reason being this.  That was a nightmare (see second discussion below) that nobody woke up from. 2A00:23C4:570A:601:9065:CFB9:73C7:6751 (talk) 14:47, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm fairly sure that Private Eye is responsible for the Graun's other name: its multiple misprints were well-known back in the '70s and '80s. MinorProphet (talk) 16:14, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * But the island is the reason why the nickname sounds menacing. --Lambiam 17:37, 21 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Saint Andrew's Day, 30 November has been an official bank holiday in Scotland since 2007, although in Wales Saint David's Day (1 March) isn't - yet. Saint Patrick's Day (17 March) in the Republic of Ireland certainly is, but St George's Day isn't in England or Northern Ireland. There's always Easter. MinorProphet (talk) 16:25, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * A friend of mine used to work for a Japanese bank… the New York City office convinced the home office to give them Dec 7th (Pearl Harbor Day) off! Blueboar (talk) 17:47, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Lupin the 3rd Part II
At the ending of episode 2, they find school documents about Hitler's childhood, about an education and his behavior. Can you search if it's true in the real-life and who are those professors? Thank you very much. -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.98.76 (talk) 18:50, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Since Lupin the 3rd Part II is a fictional anime series, fact checking in general is not particularly useful. If there are specific details you are curious about, perhaps those can be verified or refuted from sources. 136.56.52.157 (talk) 19:51, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Ok, but can you see those episode's parts and search if are historical?

Nightmare
Is a nightmare really defined (per its article) as an unpleasant dream that wakes you up? I had previously thought that it was a really terrifying dream that put you in a great sense of distress. I've had a few dreams lately that weren't terrifying, just uncomfortable, but that I woke up from as an escape. That doesn't seem so great since waking up means disrupted sleep. I had one last night where I wasn't in real physical danger. I was just potentially in trouble with a bureaucracy. I might as well have stayed in just to find out what would have happened.

I'm not seeking psychiatric advice but just want to know whether that counts as a nightmare. Thanks. 2601:648:8200:990:0:0:0:848F (talk) 20:31, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The article uses terms such as "can" and "may", so the difference between nightmare and bad dream is somewhat open to interpretation. Whether or not one wakes up is just an easily discernible distinction.  If you are literally losing sleep over this, then I shall dutifully suggest seeking professional help.  136.56.52.157 (talk) 21:18, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Some researchers (e.g. here) make the waking up part of the definition, but I do not believe that this is a universal convention in "psychological nomenclature". Most will just notice that the anxiety attack usually results in awakening, like e.g. here, p. 227. --Lambiam 09:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * No mention of being "stuck in the bureaucratic maze" with no escape in sight, is complete without mention of Franz Kafka's The Trial. Read it if you want to explore being in undefined trouble with bureaucracy, but given your unpleasant dreams, perhaps a "trigger warning" is called for. Eliyohub (talk) 10:51, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * If you're scared of bureaucracy, I don't know why you'd find Wikipedia relaxing. There is no requisite a nightmare wake you to be classified a nightmare. I'll edit it out. Jondvdsn1 (talk) 12:28, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
 * For an average editor who attempts to write niche articles on non-controversial subjects, I would suggest that WP can be very relaxing. This is my happy place. It's only when you dig beneath the calm exterior that you begin to understand the wild maelstrom of bureaucracy whose central vortex is the dreaded Arbcom. Like The Trial, Kafka's The Castle is tame in comparison. MinorProphet (talk) 16:03, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. Yes I've read Kafka, and it wasn't quite the same type of bureaucracy, but point taken. I rememeber the part about nightmares waking the person up having some footnotes that I didn't check, and without doing that I don't think I've have reverted, but I haven't looked at the new version yet. I asked about it here less from a feeling that the article was wrong, but that it may have been incomplete. Particularly, I thought a nightmare had to produce intense fear or anxiety and that woke the person up. This particular dream I remembered wasn't so intense, only uncomfortable, and I wasn't yet in the clutches of the bureaucracy. So I'd likely have been better off staying asleep. And yes, Wikipedia can be nightmarish in its own right ;). 2601:648:8200:990:0:0:0:491C (talk) 06:20, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Just pointing out, and I don't know how to source this but it might be kinda hard to know how much "real time" is passing when you're having a dream or a nightmare. Even if your dream feels like it's lasting for hours, for all you know, only a few seconds may have passed. Likewise, when you wake up from a dream/nightmare, you can't know if you're waking up right away, or if time has passed, only in your slumber, you're not aware of it. Eliyohub (talk) 07:16, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
 * That's interesting but I'm pretty sure I woke directly from the dream. I felt myself awakening inside the dream itself, i.e. the physical shift before switching from being asleep to awake. 2601:648:8200:990:0:0:0:491C (talk) 21:56, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The idea that perceived time in a dream may be vastly different than real time is common, but experiments do not support it. Perceived dream time generally seems to be close to real time. CodeTalker (talk) 07:39, 23 December 2022 (UTC)