Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 February 7

= February 7 =

Did the Ottoman empire claim victory against the Allied powers in the Gallipoli Campaign?
There have been many debates and arguments between historians about this topic.I would like to know your claims and evidence to support them.In the Gallipoli campaign article on wikipedia the result of the campaign is shown as an "Ottoman Victory" though the Ottoman Empire's economy was severly damaged after the events of the campaign.--Someguyonthewiki (talk) 05:11, 8 February 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Someguyonthewiki (talk • contribs) 14:08, 7 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Probobly the right place for this discussion is Talk:Gallipoli campaign, but it's the only example I can think of where a major amphibious landing had established beachheads but was unable to exploit them and subsequently withdrew. The Allied strategic aim of passing a naval fleet through the Turkish Straits to bombard the Ottoman capital and open a supply route to Russia was never achieved. The victory might have been costly, the casualty figures are similar for both sides and as you say there were economic consequences, but the object of the Central Powers was achieved, while that of the Entente Allies was not. Victory at Gallipoli, 1915: The German-Ottoman Alliance in the First World War by Klaus Wolf (2020) is a reference. Alansplodge (talk) 15:12, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Victory in a single battle or campaign is not a victory in the entire war. The Entente clearly did not succeed in the Gallipoli campaign, but as noted in Ottoman Empire in World War I, by autumn of 1918, the Ottoman government did not believe the War was winnable on the battlefield, and while a succession of Government officials tried to negotiate a set of favorable terms, they had no bargaining chips, and that led to the Armistice of Mudros, the Occupation of Constantinople, and the eventual Partition of the Ottoman Empire.  Given those series of events, I find it hard to say they could claim victory against the allies in World War I.  -- Jayron 32 15:32, 7 February 2022 (UTC)


 * On the other hand, the Middle Eastern campaign was a loss for the Ottomans and a victory for the Allied Powers… and resulted in the Ottoman Empire losing about half of its pre-war territory. I certainly would not call that a “win”. Blueboar (talk) 15:31, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The OP was specifically asking about the infobox of the Gallipoli campaign article, although admittedly the heading of his question suggests the whole war, which was clearly a catastrophic defeat for the Ottomans. Perhaps the OP is unaware of the other campaigns against the Ottomans? See Ottoman Empire in World War I and Middle Eastern theatre of World War I. Alansplodge (talk) 15:37, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * If the Entente got in range would they have been willing to bomb landmarks like Hagia Sophia and that other one if the Ottoman military had started using them as shields? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:03, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Such speculative questions are unanswerable. --Lambiam 16:08, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * If the Zimmerman telegraph was leaked almost immediately then it's possible some private communication supporting one way or the other came out by now, though it's also possible there's nothing. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:31, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * It's highly improbable that the Hagia Sophia would be a target; it had been the centre of Eastern Orthodox Christianity for more than 1,000 years before it was a mosque and destroying it would have upset both the Russians (our allies) and the Greeks (who we hoped would be our allies). Alansplodge (talk) 17:19, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Makes sense. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:47, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Quite apart from the Russians and the Greeks, millions of Muslim British Subjects (and indeed French) would also have been rather-more-than upset by any attempt to bomb Hagia Sophia or the Blue Mosque (which I assume is what you mean by "the other one"). DuncanHill (talk) 21:55, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes that too. And even non-religious history and architecture fans. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:20, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The Sultan, Mehmed V, in his role as Caliph, had declared jihad against the British Empire. Given the large Muslim population in India (which included the areas which are now Pakistan and Bangladesh), and the part played by the British Indian Army and the Imperial Service Troops, maintaining good relations with Muslims was something the British could not afford to ignore. Peter Hopkirk's On Secret Service East of Constantinople : The Plot to Bring Down the British Empire is well worth reading. DuncanHill (talk) 22:34, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The Zimmermann Telegram had nothing at all to do with the Ottoman Empire; it was sent by Germany to Mexico and had nothing to do with the Ottoman campaign. -- Jayron 32 17:35, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I know, I know, what I was getting at is that it if even that can leak then anything can leak. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:47, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * For any given large enough tolerance of "could", anything could happen. However, we don't discuss "could" at this venue.  As it says in the instructions at the top of the page "We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate."  Instead, this desk is for asking questions about what "did" happen.  Please keep the discussion going in that direction instead of veering off into speculation.  -- Jayron 32 18:30, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * One might declare the outcome of the Gallipoli campaign a Pyrrhic victory for the Ottoman side. The Ottoman losses were as high as they were also because the mortality rate was much higher than in the Allied forces and huge numbers succumbed to disease, presumably because of insufficient hygiene while the medical corps was less trained and inadequately equipped. The mortality among the wounded was also significantly higher. --Lambiam 16:06, 7 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Sagittarian Milky Way -- The most famous targeting of a famous religious building during WW1 was Reims Cathedral... AnonMoos (talk) 20:37, 7 February 2022 (UTC)


 * The Germans were happy to bomb Coventry and destroy the cathedral.  It was only through luck that St Paul's Cathedral survived.   When the Bulgarians said they were going to move into Constantinople the Turks said they would fire Santa Sabedoria before leaving, so Bulgaria didn't bother. 2A00:23C3:FB80:7C00:C495:3CE7:3180:2449 (talk) 13:47, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Um... the bombing of Coventry and St. Pauls took place in World War II... different war. Blueboar (talk) 13:55, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

What play is this?
While changing TV channels one day I saw an infatuated character ask a military officer if he was a general and he said generalissimo and she fainted or otherwise became even more star-struck. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:06, 7 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Our List of generalissimos might help. Any clue as to location or era? Alansplodge (talk) 14:57, 8 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Somewhere with white people and when corsets were still a thing. I'm going to guess 19th century? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:32, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Off the top of my head, and with no warranties or guarantees either express or implicit, either Darling Lili or Soft Beds, Hard Battles. I've only seen each once, and can't say they had much impact on me, but they both sprang to mind when I read the question. If I had to put money on it, then I'd go for Darling Lili. If not them, then 'Allo, 'Allo! is very much the sort of thing that would have used a joke like that. DuncanHill (talk) 22:08, 8 February 2022 (UTC)