Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 January 1

= January 1 =

Was Hermon di Giovanno Turkish, Greek, American or Lesbian?
"He was born in Mytilene, Lesbos Island, Ottoman Empire (now Greece), but lived for most of his life in Boston, Massachusetts". You see the problem. The article has gone with Greek, which seems to me to be the least correct of the available options (he would have become Greek for a while when he was 12, I suppose). Card Zero (talk) 00:28, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Most sources spell his surname "DiGiovanno", and this source reports 17 Dec 1897 as his date of birth. His birth name strongly suggests he was born into an ethnically Greek family, just like the vast majority of the inhabitants of Lesbos. (For an example of an ethnic Turk, also born in Ottoman Mytilene, see Tamburi Ali Efendi.) Hovhaness, in conversation with Bruce Duffie, refers to DiGiovanno as a "Greek philosopher" who visited Greece as late as 1953, so he apparently maintained a Greek identity. Usually, we would then use the label "American-Greek". (We do not have waterproof evidence DiGiovanno was naturalized as a US citizen, but it seems a safe bet.) Our Manual of Style does not provide very helpful guidance for historic individuals, since the concept of nationality as defined by political borders and passports is relatively new. (Was Heine French?) In any case, the MoS says not to mention previous nationalities in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability, which I think is not really the case here, unlike for, for example, Strawinski. --Lambiam 04:26, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Hovhaness also referred to "Mytilene, the Greek island," making me mistrust his grasp of geography. (Though a source says it's true that the original part of Mytilene was once an island, separated by a channel you could sail a trireme through, like Manhatten.) Ethnic Greek, and indeed American-Greek, makes sense. Is that fold3 reference plausibly the right person, with a slightly different death year? I wonder what to do with the uncited April 4th 1968. Card Zero  (talk) 07:02, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The fold3 site states that the data are from the records of the Social Security Administration. I see no reason to doubt this, but transcription errors may have been made. We do not give a source for April 4, 1968, so that may also be incorrect. I see that the same site has an index card of a naturalization record for DiGiovanno filed in the US District and US Circuit courts of Massachusetts, but you need to subscribe to view it. --Lambiam 15:55, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I can see though that the naturalization certificate was issued Feb 19, 1940 and lists his age as 42. The typewritten surname is DIGIOVANNO, but he signs his name "Hermon di Giovanno". --Lambiam 16:19, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Mytilene is not only the name of the main town on the island, but also a valid synonym of the island as a whole, so speaking of the "island of Mytilene" is quite correct. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:26, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * We have an article, Ottoman Greeks; however, the poet Odysseas Elytis, who was born on Lesbos under the Ottoman administration, is just "Greek". Alansplodge (talk) 11:28, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Although Odysseas Elytis is from a prominent family from Lesbos and the eponym of Mytilene International Airport "Odysseas Elytis", he was actually born on Crete, at the time still formally an independent republic. --Lambiam 15:14, 1 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Another case where I would simply not mention the subject’s ethnic/national origin in the lead sentence (if you need an adjective for the first sentence, try “20th Century mystic painter”). His birth on Lesbos and subsequent emigration to the US can be mentioned in the subsequent sentences or sections. Blueboar (talk) 13:31, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Does a mystic painter belong to Category:Visionary artists? We don't seem to have mystic art or painting as a category, page or list. Not sure if "visionary" requires them to have visions, or if "mystic" implies "visionary". Card Zero  (talk) 15:13, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * It is possible that those referring to him as a "mystic painter" simply mean: "a painter who happened to also be a mystic". It is conceivable he practiced mysticism as a person but that his art did not specifically focus on mystical themes. --Lambiam 15:28, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, David Barbero and Paul Shapiro (artist), said to be influenced by him, both paint bold expressionist canyon landscapes, so I'll extrapolate that di Giovanno (DiGiovanni?) produced similar work. Then again, "Di Giovanno believed his artworks to be directly inspired by otherworldly supernatural forces" (says the article). Card Zero  (talk) 15:46, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't know how to describe them, but they are generally not landscapes. The style also defies description; it is unacademic, unruly, and spontaneous rather than expressionist. Some are reminiscent of Hundertwasser's paintings, yet not abstract. There is a conspicuous absence of the visual suggestion of depth. --Lambiam 16:07, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * There is almost no visual suggestion of depth. The pattern often becomes stretched and linear in parts of the picture which I interpret as the ground plane, and the pattern becomes more fine-grained in parts of the picture which I interpret as distant landscape elements. I dig it, but I'm a sucker for highly interpretable avant-garde or outsider-art stuff. It's all a bit automatic-looking, too. Card Zero  (talk) 22:50, 2 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Does the OP mean "For the purposes of writing text in a Wikipedia article"? The answer is rather well defined, per MOS:CONTEXTBIO.  The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. For guidance on historic place name versus modern-day names, see WP:MODERNPLACENAME. Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability. (bold mine).  Wikipedia guidance is very straight forward: If he did most of his notable things while a permanent resident of the U.S., use "American" and leave other information for the body of the article further down.  -- Jayron 32 17:54, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Right? I came to the same conclusion from that bit of the MOS, but it gets less straightforward if you think that maybe his Greekness was relevant to his notability, except being sure of that would entail more insight into his art and his mystical mind than I am privy to. So I was drawn to Lambiam's "Greek-American", and then Blueboar's suggestion of nothing at all seemed like a good cautious way out of uncertainty, and then leaving it alone seemed even easier. With your encouragement though I can now change it (and cautiously include Lambiam's birth-and-death date discovery, though it's only really linked to him by the rareness of his name so far as I can see, but that's better than the current uncited guess). Hmm I suppose one doesn't wikilink American in the lead, due to its ubiquity. Card Zero  (talk) 22:18, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The two are also linked by residence in Boston. If we can establish that the artist lived at (22?) Cumberland St. in 1940 and agree that it is too unlikely that two individuals at the same address had the exact same somewhat uncommon name, we will have obtained documented certainty. --Lambiam 13:19, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Who is General Collins?
Who is the General Collins mentioned ? Mainly I would just like to know his first name. The disambiguation page includes nobody alive in 1812. Zoozaz1 (talk) 19:47, 1 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Probably Oliver. My thought process: he was a contemporary of Governor Roger Griswold, born 1762. So I searched for "General Collins 1762". Seems they were born in the same year. The father of Ela Collins. Card Zero  (talk) 20:17, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Concur. The biographical sketch here (Item V) further suggests that Oliver Collins had arisen to the rank of brigadier general in the Connecticut Militia by about the time of the War of 1812. Tyrol5 ▸ [talk]  20:36, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you both for the quick responses, very impressed that you managed to find the (most likely) correct General Collins. Zoozaz1 (talk) 23:42, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Looking at it a bit closer, the biographical sketch that I had linked earlier seems to indicate that Oliver Collins had in fact settled in Oneida County, New York prior to his becoming involved in the local militia there, and this is where he seemed to have ascended the militia ranks (i.e. in New York's militia, rather than Connecticut's). Some further plugging around turns up General Augustus Collins (b. 1743, d. 1814). Further, per this, Augustus was a member of the Connecticut Legislature in 1812 (where he served until his death), which could have been the circumstance of the speech to said legislature made by the General Collins in question here. Augustus himself was indeed a General in the Connecticut Militia as well, so I suspect he might be a likelier candidate. Tyrol5 ▸ [talk]  01:50, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The newspaper mentions his "age and venerable appearance," so yes, a 69-year-old makes more sense than a 50-year-old. Card Zero  (talk) 03:09, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the updated reply, now I see that does make more sense. Zoozaz1 (talk) 20:02, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

US domestic life during WW2
Of course the US (other than the Pearl Harbor bombing) was spared from actual battles on the national territory, but it had gas rationing, mandatory lights-out at night in some coastal areas, air travel was difficult, there were shortages of everything due to industry refocusing on war production, etc. My impression is that for most people, that stuff was annoying but not that bad in the scheme of things. Other countries had it a lot worse even if they weren't being actively invaded or bombed. And while there was some complaining and there was a constant though not huge black market for scarce products, people mostly accepted the situation and put up with it.

Is the above picture basically true? Were there other significant restrictions besides what I listed? How did it compare to the current inconveniences regarding Covid? I don't claim to be an especially tough or stoic editor but I've seen a few war movies over the years, I remember the (fictional) hardships of Frodo and Sam crossing Mordor and climbing Mount Doom, etc. So seeing these NYE superspreader events on TV last night (1000s of unmasked idiots in packed bars) made me think we are all a bunch of crybabies now. I wonder to what extent this type of thing is observed and quantified. Thanks. And happy new year everyone. 2601:648:8202:350:0:0:0:9435 (talk) 23:55, 1 January 2022 (UTC)


 * You forgot the Aleutian Islands campaign. I'm not sure that there's much point in comparing WW2 and Covid.  The more apt comparison would be Covid and the Spanish Flu.  Of course, before the 1980s the U.S. population still had some degree of an ethic of civic virtue and self-sacrifice for the common good, something which is less prevalent now (not to mention extremely foreign to the thinking of today's GOP)... AnonMoos (talk) 00:57, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The Aleutian Islands campaign clearly fits the description "not that bad in the scheme of things"; the islands that were occupied had almost no population and did not help the Japanese war effort significantly. --184.144.97.125 (talk) 04:17, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * It’s not that civic virtue and self-sacrifice for the common good is alien to Americans of today … however, unlike in WWII, the two parties have very different ideas as to what things constitute “civic virtues” and “the common good”. As for comparing the current pandemic to Spanish Flu… there are many parallels - including resistance to masking, vaccinations, and other government mandates. The debates and disagreements we see today is hardly a new trend in American politics. It’s actually quite normal. Blueboar (talk) 01:25, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thinking? Clarityfiend (talk) 12:01, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
 * In my younger days, "civics" and "being a good citizen" were conservative values. They now seem to be obsolete. --←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:54, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
 * You may be interested in The 'Beefsteak Election': When Meat Changed the Course of American Politics about the post-war effects of wartime shortages (BTW, meat rationing continued in the UK until July 1954. ) Alansplodge (talk) 13:39, 2 January 2022 (UTC)