Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2022 January 21

= January 21 =

Crossing the floor
Has an MP ever crossed the floor and crossed back at a later date? I am primarily interested in Westminster but any Parliament would be of interest. Thanks! --TrogWoolley (talk) 11:17, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Depending on how you define "back", Billy Hughes in Australia could be a candidate. Hack (talk) 11:27, 21 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Winston Churchill crossed from the Conservatives to the Liberals in 1904, and then went back to the Conservatives in 1924, saying ""Anyone can rat, but it takes a certain ingenuity to re-rat". Alansplodge (talk) 11:41, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Charles Williams-Wynn (1775-1850) seems to be the British champion at this sport; he crossed from Whig to Tory in 1810, then back to the Whigs in 1828 and finally back again to the Tories in the same year when he didn't get a job. But there may be others, see List of elected British politicians who have changed party affiliation. Alansplodge (talk) 17:59, 21 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Changing parties is not what we normally mean by crossing the floor. It's when a member of Party A feels they cannot support their party's position on a certain issue or motion, and during a division they literally cross over to the other side of the parliamentary chamber to vote with the other side. But after the numbers are counted and the result of the division is announced, they then return to their normal seat with Party A, and carry on as before. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  19:34, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
 * When you say "we", you mean in Australia Jack? Our article makes clear that it has the meaning of switching parties in the UK and Canada. Mikenorton (talk) 19:47, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
 * So it does. My bad. Thanks. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:21, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
 * It's called "voting against the whip" at Westminster. Alansplodge (talk) 11:28, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The examples in List of Canadian politicians who have crossed the floor seem to be cases of sitting as an independent or forming a new party before returning. List of Irish politicians who changed party affiliation is similar. (Have also learned that it's not allowed in South Africa and has a cool name in New Zealand, though "re-rat" is pretty memorable too). 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:35, 21 January 2022 (UTC)


 * There is a surprisingly large list of party switchers in the United States including multiple party switches, perhaps the best known recent character is Jared Kushner, who "has been at various times a Democratic, Independent, and Republican". Alansplodge (talk) 11:36, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Why did you omit Trump himself, who "has been at various times a Republican, Democratic, Independent, and Reform Party member"? (By the way, "independant" probably should not be capitalized in such uses.) AnonMoos (talk) 16:46, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Quelle erreur! :-) Alansplodge (talk) 17:20, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * He may have been a member of those parties in the sense that he had, at the least, paid membership fees, but did he move between them subsequent to first gaining political office? From political discussions online, my understanding (as a Brit) is that in the US political activists often join (in one way or another) more than one political party so as to receive their campaign and other literature in order to become better informed. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.193.128.231 (talk) 17:35, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Actually, people in the U.S. don't usually pay membership fees to join major political parties -- instead, they vote in the party's primaries. But you're quite correct that Jared Kushner was never elected to anything, while Trump didn't change parties while he was in office... AnonMoos (talk) 19:11, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * That depends on what you mean by "join". You don't have to pay to register as a Partitarian, but there's typically a small fee to join the national committee and get a party card.  The party card usually has no particular significance and most people don't bother. --Trovatore (talk) 17:58, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * In my state (NC) the long standing method is a trip to the Department of Motor Vehicles. You can also use the DMV website or a mail in form. Or register when you vote during early voting. Our primaries are semi-open semi-closed. You must be registered in the party in question or as an independent. So, Democrats can't vote in Republican primaries, but independents can. No membership fees. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 01:31, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
 * In Netherlands you have to pay, you don't have to pay just to vote for them. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 06:42, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
 * "Switching parties" is a lot less meaningful in the U.S. for those not elected officials, because the U.S. has what political scientists call "weak parties". (I guess party discipline is the relevant article.) For the average person it's just a matter of calling yourself an X, and maybe identifying yourself as X on your voter registration, the impact of which depends on whether your locality has closed primaries, and only a minority of voters vote in primaries anyway. Very few people actually sign up as members of party committees, which are the bodies that control what powers political parties do have in the U.S., like making party endorsements and choosing people for things like party delegations and election commissions. Even giving money to candidates or political action committees doesn't require you to be an Official Member of anything. --47.155.96.47 (talk) 02:47, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * This American is completely confused by the "party discipline" article. From my point of view this seems like bullying of the elected officials. If they don't get to vote the way they want, what is the point of having actual individuals?--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:40, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * As I understand it, they can vote the way they want, but they might lose the support of the party if they do, possibly even be expelled from the party. That's not that different from Trump supporting primary challenges to Republicans who resisted him, or the Arizona Dems censuring Sinema.  It's admittedly harder for American parties to expel members from the party (theoretically they might have a First Amendment right to do that, but I can't recall an example).  But they can take away all their committee assignments (though I think that's extremely rare). --Trovatore (talk) 17:46, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * At the US county level, which is where parties are usually formed, the local committee in some states can remove a member from their party with cause. Freedom of Association being equal to Freedom of Speech, no constitutional concerns.Slywriter (talk) 00:33, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * This is actually a common argument used (in reverse) in favour of proportional representation instead of first-past-the-post election of your local official. Basically: if we're all expecting people to vote with their party anyway, why aren't we voting for parties instead of for individual politicians? But despite the fact that voters often act like voting is for a party or a party leader rather than for their local member of Parliament, people really like the idea of having a local MP who is accountable to them, even if they never actually interact with that MP. To me, it seems a lot like how people like to tip their waiters in the USA: even in the face of evidence like "waiters get higher tips if they put a smiley face on their receipt" and so on that show that tipping is arbitrary and not actually related to the service a person gives/receives as a worker, a great many people prefer the idea of having "control" over their tip (and, by extension, the person they're tipping). -- asilvering (talk) 01:50, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Many of those Canadian examples sat as an independent, but that's not most or even a majority, at a quick skim. Lots of Liberal/Conservative switches, Alberta conservatives becoming other kinds of Alberta conservatives... Belinda Stronach notoriously crossed the floor straight into a cabinet position in the Liberal government, right before a confidence vote and barely more than a year after she'd run for leadership of the Conservative Party. -- asilvering (talk) 07:43, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Nation of Islam & Separatism
When were the first plans of separatism made by the Nation of Islam? From our article: It called for the creation of a separate and sovereign African American nation-state in the southern part of what is currently the United States... Thanks --79.49.59.202 (talk) 21:31, 21 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Not sure if it's related, but we have an article called Republic of New Afrika (with "multiple issues") which seems to be a similar premise. Alansplodge (talk) 11:03, 22 January 2022 (UTC)